Feat: No armor expertise; input needed

[ZuulMoG]

this gives me an idea to help shield-fighters.
since two-handed power attack gives 2 for 1
have combat expertise with shield give 2 for 1
no feat required (other than combat expertise)

Yeah, and if the feat chain above is used, add 1 to the multiplier for shield bonus for each feat taken. I'd reccommend not multiplying the enhancement bonus of the shield though, that would get messy fast. This bonus would not stack with the shield bonus granted by the feat when not using Combat Expertise.

 

[ZuulMoG]

ZuulMoG's string of feats are wasteful but also crazy. If a Fighter took those feats, he could lower his BAB by 5 and increase his AC by 20! No DM in his right mind would go for that when I have seen characters without such feats and with decent magic items wind up with a 30+ AC, combine that with those feats and you're looking at a 20th level character with an AC greater than 50 while suffering an insignificant loss to BAB.

Ouch. Didn't think of that...

Hmm... how about...

Greater Combat Expertise
Unencumbered by armor, you use your weapons for defense as well as offense.
Pre-requisites: BAB +11, Combat Expertise, Dodge
Benefit: When using Combat Expertise for defense while wearing no armor, you gain a 1.5 point Dodge bonus to AC for every point of attack sacrificed each round (rounded down), instead of the 1:1 bonus normally granted by Combat Expertise. If you do not use Combat Expertise for defense, you gain a +2 shield bonus when armed with a melee weapon, or you double the shield bonus of your shield (not counting enhancement bonuses).

Epic Combat Expertise
Unencumbered by armor, you use your weapons for defense as well as offense.
Pre-requisites: Epic attack bonus +1, Combat Expertise, Greater Combat Expertise, Dodge
Benefit: When using Combat Expertise for defense while wearing no armor, you gain a 2-point Dodge bonus to AC for every point of attack sacrificed each round, instead of the 1:1 bonus normally granted by Combat Expertise. If you do not use Combat Expertise for defense, you gain a +4 shield bonus when armed with a melee weapon, or you triple the shield bonus of your shield (not counting enhancement bonuses).


How's that?

 

[Technik4]

How are you justifying providing an armor bonus without there being any actual armor involved? No natural armor, no thick skin or whatever, just a technique? Techniques don't provide armor. It would probably be closer to a Dodge bonus and while they stack, they also are negated if the character cannot move.

Yeah, it is the 'unfettered' technique. Flavor-wise you can call it 'a wild abondon during battle making the fighter's position difficult to predict', mechanically its a sound way to do what the OC wanted.

Choosing the bonus to be an armor bonus simply so the benefit doesn't stack with an armor bonus is simply unimaginative.

Unimaginative? While I think that mechanics can be imaginative, generally how you descript a bonus is fairly generic.

+X Armor Bonus

vs

+X Bonus to Armor Class (This bonus does not stack with armor, but does stack with shields)

Personally, I think the first one is cleaner. I added the second part to my feat to further punctuate that it replaces the bonus armor regularly gives.

If this is for Fighters, then why not strip the fighter of his armor proficiencies at 1st level, except for Light. Give him a +4 Dodge bonus to AC for the loss of Heavy Armor Proficiency, restricting that it cannot be used unless wearing light or no armor. For the loss of Medium Armor Proficiency, increase that bonus by +1 at 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th and 18th. That will grant a total of +10 to AC by 18th level. Light armor will allow him best use of his Dexterity while still able to wear some type of armor. The bonus tops out better than Full Plate, but it also has the restriction of depending on the Fighter's ability to move and react.

This just seems clunky. The OC wanted a feat that gave bonuses when wearing no armor, so why allow Light? I think variations on classes can work, but the fighter in question could easily multiclass to regain those lost feats. I think it would be fair for a fighter to trade his armor feats for 'Unfettered Style', since its bonus is based on your fighter level, it discourages multiclassing to regain the armor profs.

Parrying is part of Combat Expertise, there doesn't need to be a feat for it.

I think any flavor or fluff of fighting can be mechanically represented in different ways. D&D combat is extremely abstract in nature anyway, parrying in your game may be represented by Combat Expertise, but that doesn't mean it is in everyone's game.


Technik

 

[ZuulMoG]

Parrying is part of Combat Expertise, there doesn't need to be a feat for it.

You are absolutely right, hence the re-write and re-titling of the feats. If one can learn to improve fighting defensively via Combat Expertise (CE), there's no logical reason why one can't continue to improve at it with practice. Adding a +2 bonus for Greater CE, and a +4 for Epic CE to Disarm, Feint, and Trip attacks also makes sense and would make this feat chain worth pursuing for finesse fighters, and especially for monks, who have to spread their ability score increases out through 4 scores.

Once you've completed the Whirlwind Attack chain, CE pretty much languishes, and given all of the fantasy literature out there, that just seems wrong. Not every heroic fantasy fighter was a Power Attack tank, in point of fact, few if any were, and only a few that I can recall, mostly barbarians: Conan, Chert, and Wulfgar. Ffahrd was probably a Cleaver too, but dollars to donuts the Grey Mouser had at least Greater Combat Expertise, and probably Gord and Drizzt too. Don't even get me started on Inigo and Westley!! Now Aragorn was likely a master of most all of the feat chains, but it's rather obvious from his depiction that he was an Epic character, and it makes sense for an epic dude to have some versatility.

So, that gives us...

Greater Combat Expertise
Having studied your Cappa-Faire, your unarmored AC benefits more effectively from the Fight Defensively option.
Pre-requisites: BAB +11, Combat Expertise, Dodge
Benefit: When using Combat Expertise for defense while wearing no armor, you gain a 1.5 point Dodge bonus to AC for every point of attack sacrificed each round (rounded down), instead of the 1:1 bonus normally granted by Combat Expertise. If you do not use Combat Expertise for defense, you gain a +2 shield bonus when armed with a melee weapon, or you double the shield bonus of your shield (not counting enhancement bonuses). You also gain a +2 competence bonus to contested rolls for Disarm, Feint, and Trip attacks.

Epic Combat Expertise
Having studied your Agrippa, your unarmored AC benefits even more effectively from the Fight Defensively option.
Pre-requisites: Epic attack bonus +1, Combat Expertise, Greater Combat Expertise, Dodge
Benefit: When using Combat Expertise for defense while wearing no armor, you gain a 2-point Dodge bonus to AC for every point of attack sacrificed each round, instead of the 1:1 bonus normally granted by Combat Expertise. If you do not use Combat Expertise for defense, you gain a +4 shield bonus when armed with a melee weapon, or you triple the shield bonus of your shield (not counting enhancement bonuses). You also gain a +4 competence bonus to contested rolls for Disarm, Feint, and Trip attacks.

Of course, now this really is Improved Metamagic for fighters. Perhaps the bonus to Disarm, Feint, and Trip resolutions should only be available to those who have the associated feats? Yeah, makes sense. It's a beastly huge chain of feats, but at least it gives the fencers and swashbucklers something to take after Whirlwind Attack instead of wasting feats on Power Attack with their piddly Strength scores.

 

[Arkhandus]

ZuulMog's feats are the only ones I'd even remotely consider in any game, and only to an extent. I don't see how anyone thinks, with the fact that 3E differentiates between several different types of AC bonus, that a character could get an Armor bonus to AC without actually using some kind of armor to get it, whether it's physical, magic force, psychokinetic force, solidified ectoplasm, or whatever. I also don't see how anyone thinks these sort of feats make any sense compared to Dodge, Combat Expertise, and Mobility. Nor how people seem to think that spending 3-4 feats on a +8 total AC bonus is somehow wasteful, considering how many gads of feats a Fighter gets anyway.

Maybe you all use some funky 3rd-party supplements that add mondo overpowered boosts for the cost of one mere feat, but I don't recall seeing such junk in WotC products I buy. Power Attack in 3.5 is about the most stupidly-overpowered feat I've seen from WotC so far, but then my collection is short a few books. If you think +4 armor AC is worth 1 feat, or even less than 1 feat, you'd have to agree that a 9th-level version of Mage Armor granting +36 AC, but otherwise exactly the same (targeting any one touched subject, lasting 1 hour per caster level, made of magic force that works against incorporeal attacks too, etc.) would also be completely fair and fine. But it's not as far as I'm concerned.

Duelists, Unfettered, and their ilk don't get AC bonuses for free. They need high Intelligence or whatnot, and not everyone can have all-around high ability scores. High Str for damage, Dex for AC and Reflex and Initiative, Con for HP, Int for skill points and feat access and Duelist or Unfettered AC, Wis for Will saves and Spot/Listen, Cha for....uh, nothing. Unfettered and Duelists have worse AC than Fighters, because they only get a few points of AC compared to a Fighter wearing magic full plate and a magic shield. Difference is they don't have to spend money on their AC, so they have more cash to spend on a good weapon or on utility items that shore up their weaknesses. That's why they don't get great AC bonuses for free, because their mediocre AC bonuses free up a decent amount of cash for other things.

Personally I think the Monk, Duelist, and Unfettered are weaker than they should be (especially compared to Warmains, the heavy counterpart of Unfettered in AU/AE), especially in the AC department. But I wouldn't give them such overpowered feats as have been proposed here, a few of ZuulMog's feats aside. A feat is not worth +4 or more AC; the 3.0 psionic feat Inertial Armor has it's own restrictions to make up for that, as do the classes with access to it in 3.0. If you really want to shore up an unarmored fighter's AC, at least try to be somewhat sensible regarding the rules and the way AC works. Blocking attacks should be represented by a shield bonus, or a dodge bonus in some cases, a competence bonus in perhaps some other cases.

Sample feats:
Nimble Combatant (General, Fighter)
You are exceptionally talented at evading attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13+, BAB +1 or higher, Spot 2+ ranks, Dodge, and Int or Wis 13+.
Benefit: You gain a dodge bonus to Armor Class, equal to your Intelligence or Wisdom modifier, whichever is higher at any given time, to a minimum of +2 AC. This AC bonus will not exceed 2 + your character level. Nimble Combatant does not apply when wearing armor or carrying more than a medium load. Like most dodge bonuses, this dodge bonus is lost when immobilized or denied a Dexterity bonus to AC.
Special: This may be taken as a Fighter bonus feat.

Greater Nimble Combatant (General, Fighter)
You are quite experienced at many dodging techniques.
Prerequisites: Dex 17+, BAB +6 or higher, Mobility, Nimble Combatant.
Benefit: You gain a further +2 dodge bonus to AC from the Nimble Combatant feat, and your dodge bonus from Nimble Combatant is no longer limited by your character level.
Special: This may be taken as a Fighter bonus feat.

Superior Nimble Combatant (Special, Fighter)
Your dodging skills are awe-inspiring.
Prerequisites: Dex 19+, BAB +9 or higher, Greater Nimble Combatant, Nimble Combatant, Fighter level 6+.
Benefit: You gain yet another +3 dodge bonus to AC from the Nimble Combatant feat.
Special: This feat is only available to Fighters, and may be taken as a Fighter bonus feat. You may gain this feat multiple times, and its benefits stack, but each additional copy of this feat requires a Base Attack Bonus 3 points higher than the previous copy, and requires 3 more Fighter levels than the previous copy.

Improved Combat Expertise (General, Fighter)
Your defensive combat skills are exceptional.
Prerequisites: BAB +1 or higher, Int 13+, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: Whenever you use the Combat Expertise feat, you gain an additional +1 AC from that feat. Also, increase the base AC bonus from Combat Expertise by 50%, rounded down, when you are using a light shield, heavy shield, or tower shield.

Greater Combat Expertise (General, Fighter)
You are superb at defending yourself in the heat of battle.
Prerequisites: BAB +5 or higher, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You are no longer limited to taking only a -5 penalty to attack rolls in exchange for AC bonuses from Combat Expertise. You may now take any attack roll penalty equal to or less than your Base Attack Bonus, and gain an equal bonus to AC, from the Combat Expertise feat. In addition, increase the AC bonus from Combat Expertise by 50%, rounded down. If you use a light shield, heavy shield, or tower shield, instead double the AC bonus from Combat Expertise. This particular benefit overrides the shield benefit from Improved Combat Expertise. Greater Combat Expertise only applies in light armor or no armor, and does not apply when carrying more than a light load.

Superior Combat Expertise (Special, Fighter)
Your defensive tactics are practically legendary.
Prerequisites: BAB +15 or higher, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Greater Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, Fighter level 10+.
Benefit: Double the base AC bonus granted by the Combat Expertise feat. If you use a light, heavy, or tower shield, increase the bonus by a further 50%, rounded down. These override the corresponding benefits from Improved Combat Expertise and Greater Combat Expertise. Superior Combat Expertise only applies in light armor or no armor, and does not apply when carrying more than a light load.
Special: This feat is only available to Fighters, and may be taken as a Fighter bonus feat.

And I'm leery of that last feat I threw together, too. These're more powerful than what I already use (I use a few feats that give +1 AC each time, but can be gained multiple times, with slight increases to their prerequisites for each additional copy).

 

[Technik4]

I don't see how anyone thinks, with the fact that 3E differentiates between several different types of AC bonus, that a character could get an Armor bonus to AC without actually using some kind of armor to get it, whether it's physical, magic force, psychokinetic force, solidified ectoplasm, or whatever.

This seems to be a small point. I mean honestly, no it isn't a perfect fit flavor-wise, but this is the same game where people hurl fireballs, raise the dead, and slay dragons right? If it helps serve someone's concept, what difference does it make if the crunch-to-fluff isn't dead on?

I also don't see how anyone thinks these sort of feats make any sense compared to Dodge, Combat Expertise, and Mobility. Nor how people seem to think that spending 3-4 feats on a +8 total AC bonus is somehow wasteful, considering how many gads of feats a Fighter gets anyway.

Dodge, Combat Expertise, and Mobility all stack with armor (and each other).

Duelists, Unfettered, and their ilk don't get AC bonuses for free. They need high Intelligence or whatnot, and not everyone can have all-around high ability scores.

How many duelists, unfettered, and their ilk don't have at least a +2 bonus to those bennies? It *is* free AC bonuses, and if you build around their concepts they can be *high free AC bonuses*. The reason those bonuses exist is because they are always limited by the armor they can wear (IIRC Light Armor).

Unfettered and Duelists have worse AC than Fighters, because they only get a few points of AC compared to a Fighter wearing magic full plate and a magic shield.

They can wear bucklers, and you're right. The proposed feats do NOT stack with armor, you can file them away with Unfettered/Duelists/Ilk. The difference is that instead of making a feat that grants you an unnamed AC bonus based on an attribute, they get ARMOR bonuses (thus not horseshoeing any potential unarmored fighter concepts).

But I wouldn't give them such overpowered feats as have been proposed here...

Put your money where your mouth is - Break the feats I suggested.

If you really want to shore up an unarmored fighter's AC, at least try to be somewhat sensible regarding the rules and the way AC works.

I don't appreciate the derision, because I don't think there is much sensible about D&D's combat system except that it resolves things somewhat quickly and fairly.

Technik

 

[ZuulMoG]

Ok, this is what I'm going to offer my players...

Improved Combat Expertise
Having studied Bonetti’s Defense, your unarmored AC benefits more from the Fight Defensively option.
Pre-requisites: BAB +6, Combat Expertise, Dodge
Benefit: When using Combat Expertise for defense while wearing no armor, you gain a +1 Dodge bonus to AC, in addition to the bonus normally granted by Combat Expertise. If you do not use Combat Expertise for defense, you gain a +1 shield bonus when armed with two melee weapons, or you double the shield bonus of your shield (not counting enhancement bonuses). You also gain a +2 competence bonus to contested rolls for Disarm, Feint, and Trip attacks if you also have the associated feats.
Normal: Combat Expertise gives a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each point of BAB (up to 5) that is sacrificed, no bonus defense for off-hand weapons or shield, and no bonus to Disarm, Feint, or Trip.

Greater Combat Expertise
Having studied your Cappa-Faire, your unarmored AC benefits more effectively from the Fight Defensively option.
Pre-requisites: BAB +11, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, Dodge, Balance 8 ranks
Benefit: When using Combat Expertise for defense while wearing no armor, you gain a +1.5 Dodge bonus to AC for every +1 of BAB sacrificed each round (rounded down), instead of the 1:1 bonus normally granted by Combat Expertise. If you do not use Combat Expertise for defense, you gain a +2 shield bonus when armed with two melee weapons, or you double the shield bonus of your shield (not counting enhancement bonuses). You also gain a +4 competence bonus to contested rolls for Disarm, Feint, and Trip attacks if you also have the associated feats.
Normal: Combat Expertise gives a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each point of BAB (up to 5) that is sacrificed, no bonus defense for off-hand weapons or shield, and no bonus to Disarm, Feint, or Trip.

Superior Combat Expertise
Having realized that Tybalt tends to cancel out Cappa-Faire, your unarmored AC benefits even more effectively from the Fight Defensively option.
Pre-requisites: BAB +16, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, Greater Combat Expertise, Dodge, Balance 8 ranks
Benefit: When using Combat Expertise for defense while wearing no armor, you may reduce your BAB by up to 10 instead of 5 as is normally granted by Combat Expertise. If you do not use Combat Expertise for defense, you gain a +3 shield bonus when armed with two melee weapons, or you triple the shield bonus of your shield (not counting enhancement bonuses). You also gain a +6 competence bonus to contested rolls for Disarm, Feint, and Trip attacks if you also have the associated feats.
Normal: Combat Expertise gives a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each point of BAB (up to 5) that is sacrificed, no bonus defense for off-hand weapons or shield, and no bonus to Disarm, Feint, or Trip.

Epic Combat Expertise
Having studied your Agrippa, your unarmored AC benefits even more effectively from the Fight Defensively option.
Pre-requisites: Epic attack bonus +1, Combat Expertise, Greater Combat Expertise, Dodge, Tumble 20 ranks, Balance 8 ranks
Benefit: When using Combat Expertise for defense while wearing no armor, you gain a 2-point Dodge bonus to AC for every point of attack sacrificed each round, instead of the 1:1 bonus normally granted by Combat Expertise. If you do not use Combat Expertise for defense, you gain a +4 shield bonus when armed with two melee weapons, or you triple the shield bonus of your shield (not counting enhancement bonuses). You also gain a +8 competence bonus to contested rolls for Disarm, Feint, and Trip attacks if you also have the associated feats.
Normal: Combat Expertise gives a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each point of BAB (up to 5) that is sacrificed, no bonus defense for off-hand weapons or shield, and no bonus to Disarm, Feint, or Trip.

This chain consistently gives Shield users a better AC, gives Two Weapon fighters a better AC that 2-handers, and even has some use for 2-handers (Trip, Sunder, and Disarm bonuses). The pre-requisites are sensible (if you're Epic and not wearing armor, you'd darn well better have at LEAST 20 ranks in Tumble!!), favor rogues at the higher levels but still remain open to all, and generally rock the heck out. If people want to avoid the wrath of S. Morgenstern, then feel free to modify the flavor text...

 

[Runesong42]

I apologize if this was already mentionned, but why not bypass all these extra feats and use the optional Defense bonus rules as described in Unearthed Arcana and core rules in d20 Modern? It doesn't stack with armor, and gives fighters a +8 armor bonus at higher levels. Just a thought.

- Dru