• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Feat Points

Sylrae

First Post
I revised the feat points system presented by Sean K Reynolds to be on a 1-6 scale instead of a 1-12 scale, so that feat points could be awarded at every level.

I'm not sure all of his pricing is good though. Could people look at the document and see if the pricing seems right?

Essentially the idea is to figure out how much each feat is worth.

This is the 3.5 feats he commented on. Might even be 3.0.

After having these valued in terms of usefulness, then maybe doing the same with pathfinder/trailblazer/project phoenix feats would be worth pursuing.

Lemme know what you guys think
 

Attachments


log in or register to remove this ad

No, he's wrong.

Improved Initiative for example is worth more than 5 feat points because it should be treated as a skill that gives you an extra attack. He compares it bizarrely to 'Skill Focus', when he should be comparing it to 'Cleave' or some other similar combat feat.

Initiative is simple. If you win initiative, at the midpoint of round 2, you'll have attacked 2 times to the opponents 1 (twice as much damage!). At the midpoint of round 3, you've have attacked 3 times to the opponent's 2. This is often an overwhelming advantage. So, Improved Initiative gives a 20% chance of doing like 50% greater damage (assuming a 3 round fight). It's probably hands down the best feat in the game (with Rapid Shot being one of the few core contenders).

Similarly, he compares Improved Trip - another feat that gives you extra attacks/actions - to Weapon Focus, when it should be compared to Rapid Shot.

Also, the benefits of skills will vary vastly depending on the style of the DM. If you are forced to make alot of skill checks, then a skill enhancing feat might be good. But if not, it might be worthless.

I don't see alot of merit in the system.
 

Hmm. Alright Celebrim.

That's the most useful response I've gotten to this Idea I think.

Skill usefulness is assumed in class design though, so your point also makes a difference in terms of that. IMO That's part of why people always complain about the bard. The Bard is a heavily skill based character, and in some games that makes them nigh useless.

You make some good points about those feats. They're good reasons to not have them priced the way he does.

But not all the feats are as good as others. I've seen that part myself.

Even if he priced them wrong, The Feats are not all worth taking, when compared to the other feats. Correct?

I'm seeing a need for some way to balance them. Is that just me?

That is why the Idea of Feat Points appealed to me.

I'd be open to other suggestions so that crappier feats didn't hurt you so much, and you were compensated somehow.

Otherwise, why even have them as options?

Any better suggestions?

Would his system be a decent Idea if things were priced better?
 

Would his system be a decent Idea if things were priced better?

The basic problem is there is never any way to perfectly balance a system. I've never seen a point buy system that was perfectly balanced. By assigning the feats points, you are really just pushing the problem around. Some of the feats will still be 'crappy' and others will still be 'really strong', only you've probably shuffled around what they are. For example, SKR made an almost must have feat - improved initiative - cost as if it was an ordinary feat which effectively makes it even better. Meanwhile, he's taken a slightly weak feat like 'weapon focus' and made it priced as a really strong feat, which effectively makes it a bit worse.

So my basic answer is you have to give up on the idea of things being priced better, and in particular you have to give up on the idea of a complicated point buy making it easier for you to come up with a balance.

But not all the feats are as good as others. I've seen that part myself.

Yes, but often its because the poor feats are really situational. Endurance is singled out as a bad feat, but its only a bad feat in D&D as it is normally played. If you played D&D in a low magic outdoor setting, like Stone Age D&D or had a scenario where you had to survive a ship wreck, or cross a desert, or surviving a winter stranded in a high mountain pass at a relatively low level, Endurance would be one of the best if not the best feats you could have. I mean basically it gives you a +4 bonus on almost every roll in those sort of scenarios, what's cooler than that.

However, if you play a game that handwaves encumberance, has ready access to magic, and generally never gets more than a day from civilization, then Endurance probably never ever comes up.

Meanwhile, the guy in the 'ship wrecked on a desert island' campaign is thinking Skill Focus (Diplomacy) is about the worst feat imaginable, because heck, at least 'Use Rope' has some uses.

I guess I would like to see some examples of some of the 'crappier feats' that you feel hurt you so much.
 

Alright. Well they dont so much 'hurt' as just 'nowhere near as good as the other options' so they never get taken.

Many of these, in my games, are no longer even considered feats. They're provided as core mechanics, or have some other way to deal with them.

Weapon Proficiencies: They simply aren't worth a feat. Even when they're giving you massive amounts of weapons, they just aren't useful enough. If you want to play a wizard who has a scythe, fine. But youre not likely to give up a feat for it, and I wouldn't blame you.

(Weapon Profs aren't feats anymore in my games. I have the player 'practice using the weapon' and after enough check rolls have been made, the player can use the new weapon, mid level. Every so many BAB I let the players just gain a new weapon group (UA Weapon Groups))

Eschew Materials (Components under that cost are usually just assumed to be in the player's possession anyways, and people usually just don't use components unless theyre really pricey.) Even if you tediously track components, it would be easier to just buy a stock of components instead of using a feat on this.

Run if only useful if youre using third party chase rules, as in standard D&D, if 2 creatures have the same speed, they'll never catch eachother.

3.5e Toughness was worthless. Pathfinder fixed this one though.

Item Creation Feats:
You're already spending your feat on it, the xp you have to drop on items quickly adds up, making you lag behind in the group, usually for items that are consumable and are by this time worthless. Unless I need to make a unique superpowerful item for myself in secret (Possibly to turn myself into a lich or something), I'm always better off buying it or hunting down a wizard and hiring him to make it.

Metamagic Feats: I'm already paying for this once, by buying the feat. Usually, it's not worth the effort to even take these, because the higher spell slot makes the spell less useful, and because you had to know you needed it in advance. If metamagic feats were spontaneous to everyone, they would be useful.
The only time theyre worth taking is if you either find some VERY specialized combination (quickened silence as a counterspell), if youre constantly being whacked in the face by silence, constantly being constrained, or actually know exactly what youre up against.

Plus, feat-trees. Often, you end up having to take feats along the way, which you will never want to use. I've had this come up with Power Attack/Cleave before. Cleave was useful for a character, but power attack was useless, so cleave actually cost me two feats. That's just an example though.
 

Alright. Well they dont so much 'hurt' as just 'nowhere near as good as the other options' so they never get taken.

Many of these, in my games, are no longer even considered feats. They're provided as core mechanics, or have some other way to deal with them.

I'm inclined to think that this is a better option than feat points.

Weapon Proficiencies: They simply aren't worth a feat. Even when they're giving you massive amounts of weapons, they just aren't useful enough. If you want to play a wizard who has a scythe, fine. But youre not likely to give up a feat for it, and I wouldn't blame you.

I agree that they are usually not worth a feat, but generally not for the reason outlined. A weapon proficiency feat is generally worth +1 damage on your attacks. If I had a feat that said, "You do +1 damage with a weapon.", people might consider it slightly weak, but quite possibly some would take it. The real problem with the weapon proficiency feats is two-fold. First, if you want to engage in combat and don't have access to good weapons, its far more efficient to splash a class than it is to spend a feat. And secondly, if you are planning to go into combat with weapons frequently, chances are you already are proficient in virtually all weapons and don't need to spend a feat.

All that indicates that they aren't really worth buying, but I'm not sure that it means that they aren't 'worth a feat'. As I said, effectively they give you +1 damage on your attacks. The clerical 'War' domain gives you martial weapon proficiency and weapon focus for 'free', which effectively means '+1 to hit and damage'. That martial weapon proficiency is no less useful to the cleric than the weapon focus that SKR touts so highly, and no less valuable to them.

(Weapon Profs aren't feats anymore in my games. I have the player 'practice using the weapon' and after enough check rolls have been made, the player can use the new weapon, mid level. Every so many BAB I let the players just gain a new weapon group (UA Weapon Groups))

Do you do the same thing with spells? Maybe let a fighter pick up a few 1st level spells by practicing with them and gain a new one every few levels?

I'm not fully happy with the weapon proficiency system, but I've never seen a really nice non-abusable system that addressed all my concerns (similarity of weapons, no ethnic bias, balance, not yet another thing we are giving casters for free and then complaining that they seem overpowered).

Eschew Materials (Components under that cost are usually just assumed to be in the player's possession anyways, and people usually just don't use components unless theyre really pricey.) Even if you tediously track components, it would be easier to just buy a stock of components instead of using a feat on this.

Again, the problem with this feat is that in most campaigns, you get it for free, which adds it to the category of 'yet another thing we are giving casters for free'. Still, I agree with you that this is somewhat suboptimal and generally only really comes up if you've been imprisoned or otherwise lost your possessions.

Run if only useful if youre using third party chase rules, as in standard D&D, if 2 creatures have the same speed, they'll never catch eachother.

I'm not sure I follow. Chasing in D&D according to the RAW is wierd because you have to plan it far more carefully than is reasonable (usually with some sort of overrun or overrun trap depending on how your read the overrun rule), but run certainly changes your speed and allows you to 'catch something' or just as importantly to get away from things that would otherwise be faster than you. However, I tend to see this primarily as a problem with the rules regarding chasing, not with the value of being able to run faster. Another probably even bigger problem with the Run feat is that most DM's seem to make all their encounter distances 60' or less. If you've got encounters starting at 400' or more with some regularity, then the ability to cover ground becomes more important.

3.5e Toughness was worthless.

No. 3.X Toughness didn't scale, but that doesn't make it worthless. It turns it into an NPC feat. At low levels of play its one of the most powerful feats in the game. The problem with it is that since it doesn't scale, its utility diminishes the longer that you play. There is a simple fix here though. If the feat doesn't scale; make it scale.

There is another subtle problem here with Toughness, in that unlike Dodge, Power Attack, and Combat Expertise, it's not a 'gateway feat' that opens up alot of powerful options to you. IMO, it should, allowing you to build a 'toughness' focused character the same way you build a str based power character or a dodgy dex based character.

You're already spending your feat on it, the xp you have to drop on items quickly adds up, making you lag behind in the group, usually for items that are consumable and are by this time worthless. Unless I need to make a unique superpowerful item for myself in secret (Possibly to turn myself into a lich or something), I'm always better off buying it or hunting down a wizard and hiring him to make it.

Again, this isn't a problem with the feat. I know for a fact that if you don't make magic ideas readily purchasable that the item creation feats suddenly become hugely important. Obviously, just as in the real world, if you have readily available consumer goods, the ability to craft and create things yourself quickly diminishes in importance. If you don't have that, then the ability to craft and create becomes one of the most powerful and necessary of all skills. Arguably, making magic items freely available constitutes yet one more thing with are giving casters for free.

Metamagic Feats: I'm already paying for this once, by buying the feat. Usually, it's not worth the effort to even take these, because the higher spell slot makes the spell less useful, and because you had to know you needed it in advance. If metamagic feats were spontaneous to everyone, they would be useful.

Limited utility, I agree, but Wizards generally get a couple of these for 'free'. I've rarely seen more than 3 or 4 spells on someone's list be metamagiced. However, this doesn't necessarily prove that they aren't 'worth a feat', as they are situationally quite useful and virtually all the monkeying around I've seen with them results in something clearly broken. And much like 'falling' I don't think 'silenced' or 'constrained' should be considered an unexpected event.

I'm not sure that 'quickened silence' would be any better than just 'silence' though as a 'counterspell', as quickened does not turn a spell into an immediate action. Maybe I don't understand what you mean.

Plus, feat-trees. Often, you end up having to take feats along the way, which you will never want to use. I've had this come up with Power Attack/Cleave before. Cleave was useful for a character, but power attack was useless, so cleave actually cost me two feats. That's just an example though.

Yes, it is, because 'Power Attack' is one of the more powerful and useful feats. Granted, in 3.X they managed to find a way to make it simultaneously less useful (in that fewer concepts could take advantage of it) and more broken (in that for those that could, it became even more powerful), but you are going to have a hard time convincing me of this argument using this example. I've a hard time imagining Power Attack ever be completely useless though. I will say that often I've seen feats created that are deep on a tree or have other significant prerequisites for no good reason. I will conversely say that I don't think feat trees go deep enough, and that fighters in particular need some even more powerful feats deep on feat trees for the sake of balance.
 

I'm inclined to think that this is a better option than feat points.


Do you do the same thing with spells? Maybe let a fighter pick up a few 1st level spells by practicing with them and gain a new one every few levels?
I'm going to assume that was sarcasm, because weapon proficiencies are worth less than spells. Well, maybe not cantrips. And I have been known to give a cantrip or 2 to someone for RP Reasons. I have a rogue who can Prestidigitation once per day, so his clothes always smell fresh.

I'm not fully happy with the weapon proficiency system, but I've never seen a really nice non-abusable system that addressed all my concerns (similarity of weapons, no ethnic bias, balance, not yet another thing we are giving casters for free and then complaining that they seem overpowered).
Similarity is addressed by UA, but it has ethnic bias. It's pretty balanced, and doesnt give anything for free to casters. As for giving weapon proficiencies between levels, its a hell of alot harder for casters to get. It's based on the number of encounters you use the weapon in/3 days practice, against a DC 35 BAB check. You get a +2 bonus for each encounter/3 days.

Again, the problem with this feat is that in most campaigns, you get it for free, which adds it to the category of 'yet another thing we are giving casters for free'. Still, I agree with you that this is somewhat suboptimal and generally only really comes up if you've been imprisoned or otherwise lost your possessions.
And the reason everyone 'gets it for free' is because unless that situation comes up, it only alleviates a small amount of tedious bookkeeping.


I'm not sure I follow. Chasing in D&D according to the RAW is wierd because you have to plan it far more carefully than is reasonable (usually with some sort of overrun or overrun trap depending on how your read the overrun rule), but run certainly changes your speed and allows you to 'catch something' or just as importantly to get away from things that would otherwise be faster than you. However, I tend to see this primarily as a problem with the rules regarding chasing, not with the value of being able to run faster.
If it's not prepared for in advance (Most Chases are not) then all I need to never get caught is to have the same speed as the creature chasing me, which in most cases will be 30. Which makes run less useful. That's what I meant.

Another probably even bigger problem with the Run feat is that most DM's seem to make all their encounter distances 60' or less. If you've got encounters starting at 400' or more with some regularity, then the ability to cover ground becomes more important.

No. 3.X Toughness didn't scale, but that doesn't make it worthless. It turns it into an NPC feat. At low levels of play its one of the most powerful feats in the game. The problem with it is that since it doesn't scale, its utility diminishes the longer that you play. There is a simple fix here though. If the feat doesn't scale; make it scale.
Pathfinder Toughness is no longer worthless. Gaining 3 hp? still not worth a feat. Gaining 8-10 hp? More worth a feat. Making it scale makes the feat a viable option.

There is another subtle problem here with Toughness, in that unlike Dodge, Power Attack, and Combat Expertise, it's not a 'gateway feat' that opens up alot of powerful options to you. IMO, it should, allowing you to build a 'toughness' focused character the same way you build a str based power character or a dodgy dex based character.
As someone who thinks feat prereqs should only include other feats if the feat is 'Improved' I've gotta disagree here. Just because I want a feat in the middle of a chain does not necessarily mean I will want or have a use for all the things that came before it.

Again, this isn't a problem with the feat. I know for a fact that if you don't make magic ideas readily purchasable that the item creation feats suddenly become hugely important. Obviously, just as in the real world, if you have readily available consumer goods, the ability to craft and create things yourself quickly diminishes in importance. If you don't have that, then the ability to craft and create becomes one of the most powerful and necessary of all skills. Arguably, making magic items freely available constitutes yet one more thing with are giving casters for free.
Even without buyable magic items, its pretty iffy whether a wand of x is worth a chunk of your xp, which is going to put you behind the rest of the group. Do that multiple times. You're now lagging a level or more behind, so that the fighter could have a magic sword, the rogue something sneaky, etc. Other than making sure I can be healed, It's rarely worth the effort.Personally I dont complain about the power of casters. I may gripe about a particular caster, if theyre good at everything (see cleric or druid v3.5) but I dont have a problem with the wizard or pfrpg sorcerer. The fighter is just on the other end of the spectrum, as he gains a bit of power but no real utility as he levels. Should you be able to buy magic items? Eventually. But, I mean, casters arent the only ones buying them either. Your fighter is going to want magic armor. Magic weapons. Etc. Should the Mage be killing his levels to equip the party? Hell no.


Limited utility, I agree, but Wizards generally get a couple of these for 'free'. I've rarely seen more than 3 or 4 spells on someone's list be metamagiced. However, this doesn't necessarily prove that they aren't 'worth a feat', as they are situationally quite useful and virtually all the monkeying around I've seen with them results in something clearly broken. And much like 'falling' I don't think 'silenced' or 'constrained' should be considered an unexpected event.
But unless you're expecting it regularly, its rarely worth getting all three.

I'm not sure that 'quickened silence' would be any better than just 'silence' though as a 'counterspell', as quickened does not turn a spell into an immediate action. Maybe I don't understand what you mean.
You can't ready a full-round action for something, and quickening it makes it a standard action(like it was before) so that you can use it as a counterspell.(Silence beside the wizard when he starts casting)

Yes, it is, because 'Power Attack' is one of the more powerful and useful feats. Granted, in 3.X they managed to find a way to make it simultaneously less useful (in that fewer concepts could take advantage of it) and more broken (in that for those that could, it became even more powerful), but you are going to have a hard time convincing me of this argument using this example. I've a hard time imagining Power Attack ever be completely useless though. I will say that often I've seen feats created that are deep on a tree or have other significant prerequisites for no good reason. I will conversely say that I don't think feat trees go deep enough, and that fighters in particular need some even more powerful feats deep on feat trees for the sake of balance.
See my above gripe regarding toughness. I think fighters need more than just 'More Feats' to even them out. They need new options. Besides Feats.
 

I'm going to assume that was sarcasm

A little. Because if you start introducing systems to give away small benefits outside the normal class based system, then I'm rather courious where it stops.

If it's not prepared for in advance (Most Chases are not) then all I need to never get caught is to have the same speed as the creature chasing me, which in most cases will be 30. Which makes run less useful. That's what I meant.

I'm still not understanding you.

You're running away from me. Your base speed is 30, and my base speed is 30. You have a 10' lead and you run 120' on your turn, putting you 130' away. On my turn, I take the run action. Because I have the Run feat, I can go 150'. On my turn I run into your square and perform an overrun. If I win the strength contest, you go prone and are subject to attack in the following rounds. If on the other hand you had the Run feat, and I didn't, then you'd run away and I couldn't catch you.

And in any event, a feat point system doesn't fix the complaint. The real problem is that chasing someone down is harder than it should be. We need better rules for tackling, armed overruns, etc. - not a feat point system.

Pathfinder Toughness is no longer worthless. Gaining 3 hp? still not worth a feat.

It is if the game is only going to go 3 or so levels. That's the whole idea of scalability. The feat is fairly balanced at 1st level, but not so much at 10th or 20th. If the game is only going 1 level, then toughness is one of the best feats in the game. You can demonstrate this by pitting 3rd level 'gladiators' against each other and trying to figure out whose feats add the most utility. And for a 1st level wizard or sorcerer, even the 3 hp of toughness are very very welcome.

Gaining 8-10 hp? More worth a feat. Making it scale makes the feat a viable option.

I'm not understanding why you are disagreeing with me here. Didn't I say that the feat should scale? The point of this conversation is to demonstrate that by and large, feat points wouldn't be needed to resolve the problem of weak feats. That virtually everyone agrees that the feat should scale I take as evidence of this.

As someone who thinks feat prereqs should only include other feats if the feat is 'Improved' I've gotta disagree here. Just because I want a feat in the middle of a chain does not necessarily mean I will want or have a use for all the things that came before it.

Err... so? Naturally you'd love to have what is further down a feat chain. Naturally, I'd love to have Spring Attack at first level and without buying what came before it. Feat chains should have big rewards at the end of them. There are other considerations here. Feat chains/trees exist because the ability to do Y implies skill with X, so X is considered a prerequiste of Y (like point blank shot as the basis of ranged feats). Also feat chains exist to limit some feats to exceptional characters, like spring attack rewards 13 dex by way of dodge. Also, you might want to push some abilities out to higher levels.

And I see no indication that a feat points system addresses the complaint I'm seeing here. Power Attack is a great feat. Just because you have a build in which it is not optimal doesn't mean it should be priced less.

Even without buyable magic items, its pretty iffy whether a wand of x is worth a chunk of your xp, which is going to put you behind the rest of the group.

No it isn't. But even more importantly than the wands, the wizard really needs defensive items. If the bracers of defence, rings of protection, and amulets of natural armor aren't available from your local walmart, you'll probably consider making them.

The fighter can get by at low levels without alot of magic. It's only at high levels that the fighter really starts needing magical defenses. With the wizard, it's quite the reverse.

I've never seen wizards (or clerics) become the weapons manufacturer for the whole party, but I have seen them spend alot of time crafting minor items for themselves.

Most importantly, if this was really a problem, the solution would be reducing the XP required to craft items, not a feat point buy system that would fail to alleviate the complaints you have AND introduce greater complexity.

See my above gripe regarding toughness. I think fighters need more than just 'More Feats' to even them out. They need new options. Besides Feats.

This makes no sense. Feats are options. What's wrong with making the new options feats? Why do we have to invent a new category for options beyond the one we already have? What could you possibly want to add that couldn't be a feat?
 

It's only because it's not your idea in the first place that I feel comfortable saying that it's an awful one. :p

A much better alternative, in my opinion, is to rebalance feats. Properly. So that 1=1 to begin with, and then there is nothing to worry about. Also, going about it that way means that you're simply tweaking bits of the existing game mechanics, as opposed to adding another subsystem. But then, perhaps I feel that there are too many, as it is. YMMV.
 

In most cases, I agree with Celebrim and Aus_Snow here. It's a lot of work for an effect that is likely to do more damage than good. Most feats are decently balanced now, depending on the game. In some games, some feats are going to be worth more and that's always going to be the case. Some feats, like Endurance, are actually worthless in my opinion - few times ever will it even be considered. One could say that toughness is worthless, but in a low-level game it's useful. Skill Foci are likely to be seeing play far less than for example Improved Initiative or Power Attack, but high skill-use games aren't that uncommon.

It might be far easier to give a small bonus to those that seem a little underpowered - especially if the bonus is more attractive in that kind of game where it usually isn't seen. For Example, Item Creation Feats are not worth much in a game where magic items are readily available in stores - so give it a bonus to, for example, appraise and use magic device when dealing with that kind of magic item (and the diplomacy check we use when haggling).

EDIT: Though I do agree proficiencies shouldn't be a feat. Either make it a skill, or make it a trained ability like Sylrae does. At first, I was a little skeptic towards that idea, but I've gotten to like it. It's much the same way that wizards learn spells, by using them, and I don't see any potential for overuse. I mean, even if the wizard actually learns to use a spiked chain, by the time they do that they'll already have stopped using melee weapons in most situations.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top