Feat Prerequistes

[Caliber]

Okay, well my question is simple enough.

Is it overly unbalancing or damaging to the game to allow characters to take feats that they do not meet the prerequistes for, with the understanding that the feat is unusable until they meet said requirements?

The situation arose when a Ranger in my campaign asked to take Animal Defiance and Animal Control while unable to cast spells.

I find nothing overly unbalancing about this, but then, I often miss things. So if anyone has some reasons that this is a bad idea, please pass them on.

Thank you.

 

[Voadam]

Here are the issues, you basicly waste your feat slot for a few levels making you less powerful for that time. However if allowed to do this you can use the feat earlier than you otherwise could making you more powerful later.

This also means that a starting high level character can get more of a bonus over a character that rose up through the levels to get there.

Overall I don't think it is that big a deal, but those are the issues I see.

 

[mikebr99]

Correct me if I'm wrong... but the prequisites for those feats are:

Animal defiance - ability to cast detect animals or plants.

Animal control - animal defiance, ability to cast speak with animals & animal friendship.

Why can't a Ranger take these at 1st level? All of those spells are in his class list... just because he can't use them yet doesn't mean anything.

 

[Mahiro Satsu]

I don't know about unballancing, but i think its unrealistic. Characters in novels and people in real life cant do everything they want to do. For example a person with low SAT scores cant go to Harvard unless he boosts them. This is like a character wanting to take improved chitical without the base attack bonus. A person cant go to harvard without being accepted and then get credit for the classes he took before he gets accepted after they let him in.
The skill/feat progression is an important character aspect to the game. Those rules are not only designed to keep *PCs from gaining power too fast, but they also exist to limit when a character gains power. If a character only gets feats at 1,3,6, etc then the player looks forward to planning, and becomes more invested in his character (and thus makes him better). letting a character take feats (etc) without meeting the prereqs dimminishes the love a pc will have for his character because hes had to work for less.
In my book, dimminishing the respect a player has for his character is about the worst thing a DM can do.

 

[Mahiro Satsu]

Correct me if I'm wrong... but the prequisites for those feats are:

Animal defiance - ability to cast detect animals or plants.

Animal control - animal defiance, ability to cast speak with animals & animal friendship.

Why can't a Ranger take these at 1st level? All of those spells are in his class list... just because he can't use them yet doesn't mean anything.

The key words are the ABILITY. he cant use them yet, then he doesnt have the ability. Somehow the casting is important to how he gets the feat.

 

[mikebr99]

The key words are the ABILITY. he cant use them yet, then he doesnt have the ability. Somehow the casting is important to how he gets the feat.

But Ranger's don't have the ability to cast cure spells at 1st level either.. yet they can still use wands of curing...

 

[Caliber]

Voadam-

That was basicly the way I saw it too. Less power now for more later. Relatively, the character will likely never use these feats (or will do so very VERY rarely.)

Instead, she wants them so she qualifies to be a Catlord. Letting her take the feats early will let her qualify for the PrC earlier than otherwise possible. Of course, she could just have easily taken levels of Druid and qualified at the same level she would now. But she really didn't want to take a level of Druid.

Mahiro Satsu-

While I would agree that diminishing the respect for a character is bad, I don't think that would really happen. The player is doing this because of her plans for the character, not to change them in some way.

mikebr99-

Your point had occured to me actually, but I am not sure if that holds. When they say the ability to cast detect animals and plants, do they mean have it on their spell list? There is precedent for something like this in the case of wands. A 1st level Ranger could use a Wand of Detect Animals and Plants, because it was on his spell list.

 

[Antikinesis]

mikebr99-

Your point had occured to me actually, but I am not sure if that holds. When they say the ability to cast detect animals and plants, do they mean have it on their spell list? There is precedent for something like this in the case of wands. A 1st level Ranger could use a Wand of Detect Animals and Plants, because it was on his spell list.

Technically, a wand is a spell trigger device. IMHO, the ability to trigger a spell isn't the same thing as the ability to cast one.

Carrying this a step further, anyone can activate a rod or a charge from a wondrous item (unless it's created with class restrictions). This shouldn't qualify as "meeting the prerequisites", either.

-AK

 

[Voadam]

Having a spell on your spell list is separate from having the ability to cast the spell. Wands only require that you have the spell on your class's spell list. Otherwise, anybody can multiclass into the spellcasting class and gain sufficient levels to cast the spell so anybody would therefore have the ability to cast the spell. Equating "potentially in the future if you take enough levels of x" with "ability" seems nonsensical.

I would not let him qualify for the prc until he qualifies for the feats, but I would let him store his feat slots so that he can take them when he qualifies for them. The DMG and PH have places that say do things in this order when you level up but it only implies and never says you must spend all your skill and feat slots right when you level.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

FWIW, feats are not spell trigger items like wands. That same first level ranger could not activate a scroll of cure light wounds. He does not have the ability to cast any spells, nor does he have a caster level. So I highly doubt he meets the prerequisites until 4th+ level.

I am not sure if it would unbalance a campaign, but I don't think I would open up this possibility to the players. If your player wants these feats sooner, let her take some levels of druid.