Feat Problems With PHB II

[glass]

The rules are written this way. Lots of people modify the rules for convenience, but this is a rules forum.

Citation?


glass.

 

[KarinsDad]

You've lost me here.

A rule for a specific circumstance is what is being talked about. That is a specific rule and it does override the general rule when it applies. In this case it applies for the specific circumstance correct?

For the feat to override the general rule, it would have to explicitly say so.

For example:

"This feat allows you to take a 5' step, even if you have already taken a 5' step this round."

If it does not state that it overrides the general rule, it does not. It applies with all of the general rules and all 5' step rules apply with the exception of any it does explicitly override.

The only 5' step rule that this feat overrides is that of taking a 5' step when it is not your turn. You can take this 5' step when it is not your turn. However, all other 5' step rules still apply.

Going back to Patryn's original statement:

Then you apply the specific rules ("You may take a 5' step when using this feat.") over the general rules ("You may not both move and take a 5' step."), and allow him to take a 5' step.

This statement is false because the feat does not explicitly state that it overrides this general rule with a phrase like:

"This feat allows you to take a 5' step, even if you have already moved this round."


In other words, for it to override another rule, it has to explicitly state that it does. This feat only explicitly states that it overrides one of the 5' step rules: that of taking a 5' step only on your turn.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Looking over the feats, I really can't say they're overpowered -- in fact, I'm thrilled that fighters are finally being brought up to par* with spellcasters, at least a little.

* - though +2 to attacks/damage pales in comparison to a Forcecage. Still.

 

[IanB]

I think on this one point KarinsDad is at least sort of correct - this doesn't look to me like a case of a specific rule overwriting a general one.

It is possible that this feat is simply expanding the scope of the original 5 foot step rule to include one more circumstance when you can take one. That doesn't have to invalidate the rest of that rule.

The easiest interpretation to my mind, though, is to just rule it as extra free movement that doesn't count against you in any way. After all, it isn't like someone is going to be able to reliably abuse this to get free 5 foot steps or anything. The circumstances under which you can use it are way too specific (and somewhat dangerous as well.)

 

[Kunimatyu]

I think on this one point KarinsDad is at least sort of correct - this doesn't look to me like a case of a specific rule overwriting a general one.

It is possible that this feat is simply expanding the scope of the original 5 foot step rule to include one more circumstance when you can take one. That doesn't have to invalidate the rest of that rule.

The easiest interpretation to my mind, though, is to just rule it as extra free movement that doesn't count against you in any way. After all, it isn't like someone is going to be able to reliably abuse this to get free 5 foot steps or anything. The circumstances under which you can use it are way too specific (and somewhat dangerous as well.)

Rogue: "Quick, cast fireball so I can move faster!"

Wizard: "You know, I did prepare haste today..."

Rogue: "No man, this'll be awesome! Two 5foot steps in one round! It'll be crazy!"

Wizard: "Okay..." ::incants::

The smoke clears to reveal the charred boots of a rogue, 5 feet away from his previous position.

(to any rules lawyers, yes, I know)

 

[Kerrick]

Steadfast Determination.
Endurance pre-req, Use Con instead of Wis for Will Saves.

You do not fail fortitude saves on a 1.

This feat is so nice, I'd totally take it, except my paladin doesnt have a feat free for...Endurance. Ugh.

But just think.. you take Endurance, Iron Will, Steadfast Determination (which is a good feat), and Indomitable Soul, and you get...

Two saves vs. every effect that requires a Will save, at +2 PLUS your Con modifier, AND you can choose the best one! Oh, AND you never fail a Fort save on a nat 1! Just think - fighters will never fail a Will save again!

I ran this by my DM, and he said, "No. I would never allow this combination." I agreed wholeheartedly. (BTW, I'm reversing my earlier opinion on IS - it's broken.)

It really makes me wonder if they playtested this stuff. I mean, you kind of expect to be able to grab feats from two or three books to make a hideous combo like this, but from the same book? Eesh.

 

[Derren]

I have the impression that if WotC tests at all, they test every book in a vaccum, not paying attention to other not core material. This way it is no wonder that so many powerfull combinations come up.

 

[Ditch]

Kerrick brings up a good point. Isolated feats can seem to be balanced or "strong" (not broken), but when coupled with other feats they exceed their original potential, exponentially. Good example, btw.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Note that that's 4 out of 7 total feats most PCs will get, and it does not work with all Will saves.

 

[Shadeus]

But just think.. you take Endurance, Iron Will, Steadfast Determination (which is a good feat), and Indomitable Soul, and you get...

Two saves vs. every effect that requires a Will save, at +2 PLUS your Con modifier, AND you can choose the best one! Oh, AND you never fail a Fort save on a nat 1! Just think - fighters will never fail a Will save again!

I ran this by my DM, and he said, "No. I would never allow this combination." I agreed wholeheartedly. (BTW, I'm reversing my earlier opinion on IS - it's broken.)

It really makes me wonder if they playtested this stuff. I mean, you kind of expect to be able to grab feats from two or three books to make a hideous combo like this, but from the same book? Eesh.

My initial reaction was the same as yours, but then I thought about it a bit more and realized it might not be so bad. Fighters still get a bad Will save progression. So even at 10th, level they get a whole +3 to Will saves. Give them a Con 20 and that's +8. Maybe a cloak of resistance +2 for Iron Will +10. Throw a DC 20 Dominate Person at them (and that's not even trying to stretch the DC and they still have a 50/50 shot at blowing it. Okay, it's a little better than that with two chances, but still...

After investing 4 feats, I would HOPE they would be able to compensate for it at least a little!