Feat Problems With PHB II

[Ditch]

When the guy said just because a feat is good doesn't mean everyone will take it, he was saying it in response to the "enchanters just got nerfed" comment. I don't think he meant it as a defense for overbalanced feats, just that for it to be a true nerf for enchanters that has to be a realistic opportunity that the caster will run up agains lots of NPC's with this feat chain. On the flip side, saying the sky is falling for enchanters everywhere is just as unrealistic as your rebuttle to his (however mistaken) argument for this feat.

Point is, nothing is free and those feats could have been used helping the tank get into a PrC that gave them mettle or something. But I guess then mages would cry about "evasion" vs. their Will saves. (Not that I'm saying anyone here is crying, but my players did and do, when NPC's mettle out of the way of harm, lol)

 

[Drowbane]

Has anyone seen anything from WotC clarifying the relation ship of the bonuses from Weapon Mastery to the WF & WS? It does seem to be a bit too good to me if the +2/+2 stacks with them.

You gotta be kidding.

If they don't stack, the feat is just another Weapon Focus bonus (+1 to hit). +2 to hit and damage after already having Focus and Spec. [sarcasm]Wow, thats amazingly broken[/sarcasm]

Back when 3.0 was still new, my group used House versions of Spec, Mastery, High Mastery, and Grandmastery based on 2e.

Mastery raised the Focus/Spec bonus to +3/+3.

If that blows your hair back, High Mastery and Grandmastery would probably give ya a heart-attack.

IMC's there is no Greater Focus and Greater Spec... but the old 2e Mastery. The PHB II is simply resurrecting some old rules.

It was annoying enough that 3.0 nerfed 2e-Weapon Spec into two feats.

 

[KarinsDad]

Fuzzy math. Indomitable Will isn't increasing his liklihood from 35% to 69.75%. Indomitable Will + Iron Will (+ Endurance) is increasing his save from 35% to 69.75%. No, I don't have a point, but it's worth pointing out.

Not fuzzy math. I already pointed out in the paragraph you responded to that he was +7 due to Indomitable Will and Iron Will, +5 just due to Indomitable Will.

Plus, the Endurance feat is not so uncommon for combatant types, at least in our campaigns. Rangers get it for free and many if not most of the Fighters in our campaigns take it since it allows them to sleep in Medium Armor (which their Mithral Full Plate becomes). Even some Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians in our campaigns have taken that feat.

In fact, probably more than half of the Fighters (and almost all of our Barbarians) in our campaigns have taken Iron Will as well. Getting creamed by a Dominate spell is just too annoying for them.

For Fighters (who get so many feats), Iron Will and Endurance are decent choices as is. For them, this is just another decent feat chain with a huge feat on top. Indomitable Will becomes almost a no brainer for many Fighters and possibly for some Rangers as well.

 

[KarinsDad]

You gotta be kidding.

If they don't stack, the feat is just another Weapon Focus bonus (+1 to hit). +2 to hit and damage after already having Focus and Spec. [sarcasm]Wow, thats amazingly broken[/sarcasm]

Sarcasm aside, the problem with the Weapon Mastery feats is that one feat is better than GWF and GWS combined, and can be acquired 4 levels before GWS, and can be acquired by a Fighter 4 / Anything X once they get BAB +8. GWF requires 8 levels of Fighter and GWS requires 12 levels of Fighter.

No 8th level Fighter in his right mind would ever take GWF at 8th level any more unless it specifically was going to be used for a feat chain other than GWS.

 

[Lorehead]

Sarcasm aside, the problem with the Weapon Mastery feats is that one feat is better than GWF and GWS combined,

Worse. It would be better than WF, GWF and GWS combined, if it applied to only a single weapon. But it doesn't. Even the non-stacking version makes the weapon masteries strictly superior to GWF, which has higher prerequisites.

The designers seem to believe that existing feats are underpowered. They'd have to be very underpowered for this one to make sense.

 

[BryonD]

To add to this, an unbalanced feat is an unbalanced feat regardless.

True.

But the vast majority of the ones being discussed here are not.

 

[Drowbane]

Sarcasm aside, the problem with the Weapon Mastery feats is that one feat is better than GWF and GWS combined, and can be acquired 4 levels before GWS, and can be acquired by a Fighter 4 / Anything X once they get BAB +8. GWF requires 8 levels of Fighter and GWS requires 12 levels of Fighter.

No 8th level Fighter in his right mind would ever take GWF at 8th level any more unless it specifically was going to be used for a feat chain other than GWS.

Yes, but its my view that GWS and GWS are underpowered for thier level. But any fighter going for max output is likely going to take WF, WS, WM, GWF, and GWS eventually. I agree that WM throws off when they'll take GWF and GWS... but so what. +4 / +6 at the cost of 5 feats. Awesome!

 

[KarinsDad]

but so what.

The "so what" is that Weapon Mastery encourages more Fighters to leave once they hit level 4 and go into another class or classes.

The intent of the "better Fighter feats" in PHB II was to encourage Fighters to remain Fighters. This feat does the opposite since it does not have a high Fighter level prereq and is better than GWF and GWS combined, one of the few reasons Fighters would stay Fighters.

 

[Mouseferatu]

The "so what" is that Weapon Mastery encourages more Fighters to leave once they hit level 4 and go into another class or classes.

The intent of the "better Fighter feats" in PHB II was to encourage Fighters to remain Fighters. This feat does the opposite since it does not have a high Fighter level prereq and is better than GWF and GWS combined, one of the few reasons Fighters would stay Fighters.

There are plenty of other high-level fighter feats in PH2. Does it really matter that this one in particular is available to multiclased fighters?

 

[FireLance]

It's also usually not fun to have your character instakilled by a Finger of Death or a Wail of the Banshee spell. So where's the feat to give an extra saving throw against those effects?

Instakill effects aren't fun either, and a feat that allows a second saving throw against them would be a good idea. With any luck, there's one in development right now.

And I know I have the option not to use the feat, however, that's only true in games where I DM. In someone else's game, I don't get to decide whether or not it gets used. Plus, there are also things like published adventures to consider.

Hopefully, if you're playing an enchanter-type character, your DM won't be mean enough to give that feat to every one of his NPCs and monsters.