Feat rogue + fighter

[HoboGod]

Furthermore, what's stopping you from adjusting an encounter to challenge a tank that can hold his own?

What I'm saying is that I don't have to adjust the encounter. Wizards are so frail that I don't need to do attack them any differently, I just need to attack them relentlessly. With dangerous terrain and monsters who exist in the extremes of these terrains as the staple of DnD, I'll eventually kill a wizard by playing the averages, not necessarily true of tanks. I'm not countering wizards, the majority of monsters which adventurers are expected to encounter are countering the wizards.

You noted that there were a lot of ways to use monsters to counter a wizard's abilities; you can do exactly the same thing against a strong fighter. Offhand, throw a spellcaster at him and see how he likes a Deep Slumber.

Yes, the party will eventually come across things which cast things like Deep Slumber, but spells like that shouldn't kill a tank until after everyone else is incapacitated as well. A black dragon which casts True Strike and slaps a wizard with full BAB power attack, now THAT gets messy. The wizard better pray that it makes the DC 16 spellcraft check to identify what the dragon is trying to do, then pray again it has something like mirror image prepared, then pray one last time that the dragon picks the wrong target.

With that said, I'm not trying to argue that a Feat Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2 would be a broken, out-of-control mass murderer of DM encounters if class bonus feats stacked like that, I just think it's better to give tanks and beatsticks a shorter leash than boomsticks.

 

[Dandu]

I'll eventually kill a wizard by playing the averages, not necessarily true of tanks.

This statement makes little sense to me. Attack a wizard relentlessly, they die. Attack a fighter relentlessly, they'll still die since they run off of HP.

Yes, the party will eventually come across things which cast things like Deep Slumber, but spells like that shouldn't kill a tank until after everyone else is incapacitated as well.

Sleeping through combat is only slightly less worse than being dead. In either case, you're out and not contributing.

A black dragon which casts True Strike and slaps a wizard with full BAB power attack, now THAT gets messy. The wizard better pray that it makes the DC 16 spellcraft check to identify what the dragon is trying to do, then pray again it has something like mirror image prepared, then pray one last time that the dragon picks the wrong target.

I like how you're using a CR 9 monster. Hm. At the level you're facing that thing, if we're doing this by the CR system guidelines, I'd like to know what wizard can't at least make the check.

With that said, I'm not trying to argue that a Feat Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2 would be a broken, out-of-control mass murderer of DM encounters if class bonus feats stacked like that, I just think it's better to give tanks and beatsticks a shorter leash than boomsticks.

So if I understand correctly, you think it's best to restrict the power of martial classes because otherwise you will have to fundamentally alter the nature of your encounters, whereas a powerful spellcaster will not cause such a shift?

 

[HoboGod]

This statement makes little sense to me. Attack a wizard relentlessly, they die. Attack a fighter relentlessly, they'll still die since they run off of HP.

My apologies, I'm going ahead of myself. It's a bad habit of mine. I made that statement under the assumption that most encounters tend to last only a few rounds and by some mixture of cure light potions and cleric healing, the group is restored to full health between encounters. Therefor, logic dictates that the character with the least hit points is more likely to die from relentless attacking.

I like how you're using a CR 9 monster. Hm. At the level you're facing that thing, if we're doing this by the CR system guidelines, I'd like to know what wizard can't at least make the check.

By rolling a natural 1, 2, or 3. I never said it was unlikely, it's just what the wizard has to do. From the start, there's a 15% chance of total death. After that, using mirror image, there's at least another 15% chance of total death. There's a ~72% (less depending on how unluckily you roll mirror image) chance you'll be fine. I admit that doesn't seems pretty safe on paper, but that's worse odds than playing a round of Russian Roulette with your character at the end of the barrel.

So if I understand correctly, you think it's best to restrict the power of martial classes because otherwise you will have to fundamentally alter the nature of your encounters, whereas a powerful spellcaster will not cause such a shift?

YES! EXACTLY! I know you were trying to be sarcastic in your humorously condescending manner, but that is my argument entirely. I expect the beatstick to stand there, get beaten up, and occasionally score a lucky enough hit to feel good about himself. I expect the boomstick to hide in the back, rip open a hole in the fabric of space and time, and make the beatstick feel emasculated by the wizard's bigger kill count. When things start shifting away from those expectations, I get frightened, angry, and insecure of my sexuality. Well, maybe not the last part, but it's still bad!

 

[Dandu]

My apologies, I'm going ahead of myself. It's a bad habit of mine. I made that statement under the assumption that most encounters tend to last only a few rounds and by some mixture of cure light potions and cleric healing, the group is restored to full health between encounters. Therefor, logic dictates that the character with the least hit points is more likely to die from relentless attacking.

To quote Tuvok, I believe your logic is flawed. There are other factors, such as the protective measures that a character has available. The ability to generate concealment, turn invisible, generate decoys, and access exotic methods of movement (climb, burrow, flight) helps prevent death from relentless attacking.

By rolling a natural 1, 2, or 3.

At level 7, you should have at least a +4 Int modifier and can have 10 ranks in the skill. You're only going to fail that check on a one. This is assuming you have nothing else in the works.

I never said it was unlikely, it's just what the wizard has to do. From the start, there's a 15% chance of total death. After that, using mirror image, there's at least another 15% chance of total death. There's a ~72% (less depending on how unluckily you roll mirror image) chance you'll be fine. I admit that doesn't seems pretty safe on paper, but that's worse odds than playing a round of Russian Roulette with your character at the end of the barrel.

I would like to point out that Dragons have blindsense, which means that the dragon's going to close his eyes and take a 50% at landing the blow, unless you interpret True Strike as bypassing that miss chance.

Here's my question: You can kill a Wizard with a Black Dragon. Can't you do the exact same to a Feat Rogue/Fighter/Psionic Warrior as well?

YES! EXACTLY! I know you were trying to be sarcastic in your humorously condescending manner, but that is my argument entirely.

I was actually trying to pin down your argument.

[quoteI expect the beatstick to stand there, get beaten up, and occasionally score a lucky enough hit to feel good about himself. I expect the boomstick to hide in the back, rip open a hole in the fabric of space and time, and make the beatstick feel emasculated by the wizard's bigger kill count. When things start shifting away from those expectations, I get frightened, angry, and insecure of my sexuality. Well, maybe not the last part, but it's still bad![/QUOTE]
That's great for you, but I prefer a game where everyone can contribute meaningfully even if they chose to take "Standing in front of things 101" in adventurer school.

Quite frankly, having had no problems in any of my games with Barbarians, Psionic Warriors, and ToB classes, I find nothing unnerving about a Feat Rogue/Fighter/Psionic Warrior.

 

[HoboGod]

To quote Tuvok, I believe your logic is flawed. There are other factors, such as the protective measures that a character has available. The ability to generate concealment, turn invisible, generate decoys, and access exotic methods of movement (climb, burrow, flight) helps prevent death from relentless attacking.

Well, if a wizard spends the first part of the battle trying to keep alive, it's exactly what I hoped he'd do. It stops me from killing him and provides meaningful entertainment. What's more, it illustrates the innate frailty of the wizard and stops the battle from ending right away.

I would like to point out that Dragons have blindsense, which means that the dragon's going to close his eyes and take a 50% at landing the blow, unless you interpret True Strike as bypassing that miss chance.

Yeah, he pinpoints the wizard with blindsense and attacks with True Strike

"Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target."

Here's my question: You can kill a Wizard with a Black Dragon. Can't you do the exact same to a Feat Rogue/Fighter/Psionic Warrior as well?

Of course, but only if the battle lasts too long. A proper tank is in no real danger being targeted if the party isn't filled with lazy, incompetent, ill-prepared do-nothings. But I'll totally start killing players if that's the case. ^_^

That's great for you, but I prefer a game where everyone can contribute meaningfully even if they chose to take "Standing in front of things 101" in adventurer school.

I can't argue with that. It's a difference in our style. You prefer games where everyone kicks ass and takes names. I prefer games where the party needs to make sacrifices and work together or I brutally murder them.

On a side note, I can't really get my players to play full arcane or divine casters. I go out of my way to ensure that being a front line tank never means doing serious damage and being an arcane caster always means horrifying destruction. Even still, my group tends to have 2-3 front line types, a cleric with 1-3 levels in some kind of martial class, and a wacky atypical arcane caster that sacrifices the ability to cast spells for some seemingly irrelevant ability. They confuse me so much....

 

[Veven1290]

pause the thread hi-jacking/pissing contest.

i would like to thank rgard for answering my question a dozen posts ago.

continue.

 

[HoboGod]

It's a discussion board, thread hi-jacking is part of the game.

 

[rgard]

pause the thread hi-jacking/pissing contest.

i would like to thank rgard for answering my question a dozen posts ago.

continue.

You are most welcome. I like a 2 level dip of the martial rogue when I'm playing a light fighter.

I now return the thread to Hobogod and Dandu.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Veven1290]

You are most welcome. I like a 2 level dip of the martial rogue when I'm playing a light fighter.

I now return the thread to Hobogod and Dandu.

Thanks,
Rich

cool, thats what i'm doing too, making on NPC here and i wanted a skillful tough guy. I start with 1 level of feat rogue for skills and then do human paragon (so i can always have UMD) and then go Thug fighter w/ Dungeon Crasher (so glad these eliminate different fighter bonus feats) I think he'll be neat.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Feat Rogue / Barbarian is one of my favorite multiclasses in the game. Former for the skills and combat tricks (feats), latter to add sheer power and some survivability.