Feats allowing crits on non crittable critters

[AuraSeer]

There's no monster in the game that fighters can't hurt.

There's no monster in the game that rogues can't hurt, either. Your rogue had trouble with a mummy not because of the lack of crits, but because he used a weapon unsuited to the task. By level 20 you should have spent some of your pocket change on an elemental burst weapon, or a wand of magic missile, or something else to let you penetrate DR despite lack of sneaks. (Come to think of it, you're the only Rog20 I've ever seen who didn't own both a light mace of disruption and a dozen arrows of construct slaying. Having that one, single, nonversatile weapon must work really well for you.)

I understand you were frustrated, but why bother hacking inneffectually at the mummy when you can be useful someplace else? Go flank the evil cleric. Start reading scrolls, using wands, or throwing alchemical items. Trip the monster or disarm it or sunder weapons or throw your cloak over its head, or do just about anything except stand like a lump and poke at some wussy monster that's no threat to your party anyhow.

 

[Nuclear Platypus]

First off to Gort, Klaatu barada nikto. Sorry I couldn't resist.

Secondly when I started the thread, I had just returned from a game where many a possible crit were wasted against a fire elemental, an earth elemental and a bone golem dragon. Note that none has any vitals so my rogue's sneak is out (had to resort to a heavy crossbow, which wasn't that much better) and the fighter was probably receiving more than he was giving (his crit range was like 15-20). We were a bit shorthanded too with our only magic firepower coming from a fighter/sorceror and I became the pseudo healer (wands).

Whatever the case, I know I've seen feats that allow critting the normally uncritable. I just don't know where. It may have been one of those 'trade in +xd6 sneak attack to gain +y against constructs / undead / whatever' kinds of feats. I also highly doubt the DM would mind so long as he looked at the feats in question first. He still doesn't remember where he saw Supreme Cleave (I think that was the name).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The rogue, on the other hand, with 20 levels under his belt, is reduced to doing D6+5 damage to say, a mummy, a creature with DR 5/-. It'll take ages for him to hurt it! This exact scenario came up in a game I was playing in. My fighter was fighting a death knight, the cleric was battling a vampire monk, the barbarian was slicing up an evil cleric, and our rogue was in one on one, mano-a-mano combat with a monster with ten fewer hitdice than him. It was rather pitiful.

If your 20th level rogue is so much worse at dealing with undead than some 10th level rogues I have played with, then clearly that is a matter of purposeful design. Surely you could use a wand or chuck vials of holy water and do better than ~8 points of damage per round. Heck, you could tumble to set up a flank and Aid Another for the party tank for a net +4 to hit; that way he can PA for +8 damage (times 4 attacks).

I do not have a problem with a feat that allows, say, undead to be subject to critical hits and critical hits only. But I would explictly disallow the sneak attack bonus dice. This kind of thing should be meat and potatoes for fighter-types, not rogues. I would also consider allowing a feat that gave a +2 favored enemy bonus; that would be more appropriate for a rogue.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Actually, I think the problem isn't creature type; it's fortification. I have a really serious conceptual problem with this ability as written anyway ("Fields of force covering vital areas?" Isn't that a deflection bonus to AC? Or if it's absolute protection, why does it allow you to take enough weapon damage to kill you in a single blow but just prevent crits?)

The fact is that you shouldn't be encountering only undead, constructs, oozes, and/or plants unless your DM is really out to screw you; however, making immunity to sneak attack a PC/NPC-friendly option (well, one that doesn't require a giant ECL hit) is kinda bad. I'd definitely allow feats to bypass fortification, or just throw the ability out entirely.

That said, it seems like the idea of crit/sneak immunity sort of reflexively defines what a crit or sneak is in the first place; since creatures without vital organs or anatomical weak points can't be critted, it appears that crits or SAs represent a hit to a vital organ or anatomical (NOT structural) weak point. Since those don't exist on undead, constructs, etc., I'd find it hard to describe how a feat that allowed crits/SA on these beings would work. Targeting structural weak points? Well, that seems like an argument for avoiding DR or hardness or dealing some OTHER form of extra damage. Divine power? Well, an argument for extra damage, but again not precisely SA damage.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

That said, it seems like the idea of crit/sneak immunity sort of reflexively defines what a crit or sneak is in the first place; since creatures without vital organs or anatomical weak points can't be critted, it appears that crits or SAs represent a hit to a vital organ or anatomical (NOT structural) weak point. Since those don't exist on undead, constructs, etc., I'd find it hard to describe how a feat that allowed crits/SA on these beings would work. Targeting structural weak points? Well, that seems like an argument for avoiding DR or hardness or dealing some OTHER form of extra damage. Divine power? Well, an argument for extra damage, but again not precisely SA damage.

Which is why I think a Favored Enemy bonus would be the appropriate way to go, given some modest prereqs like a few ranks in related knowledge skills. The Favored Enemy bonus is the most like a Competence bonus. With the skill bonuses, it is a strong fit for the skill classes.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I played a rogue up to 13th-level in a campaign that focused on preventing a wizard from summoning Orcus, Demon Prince of the Undead, into the Prime Material Plane. As you can imagine, the presence of undead was great.

At around 8th-level, I began to realize that the Undead weren't going anywhere (it was around then that we discovered the "Morteus wants to summon Orcus" plot twist,) so I started making character choices to try and strengthen my viability against Undead. I bought a pair of mw light maces with plans on enchanting them with the Disruption special ability. I figured that that, coupled with my rogue's TWF style, would allow me to land several disrupting hits on an undead foe each round. I also considered picking up Weapon Finesse (light mace) to allow me to use an exceptionally high dex for my attack roll.

I'd also neglected Use Magic Device up to that point, but gave it a second look once I realized I'd be facing a lot of undead. That, coupled with a Wand of Searing Light, I decided, would also be an excellent idea. (In fact, I got that idea from these very boards. )

There is also the wonderful Sun Blade. It does double-damage vs. undead, and allows you to use any short sword feats you may have with it, while having a bastard sword's damage die. My rogue (like many) had Weapon Focus (short sword) and Weapon Finesse (short sword), so this weapon was very attractive for me.

A rogue has the tools to be effective in combat against the undead. But you have to be willing to build your character to that effect.

Another piece of advice, though it won't be useful to you in particular: I suggest that anyone who wants to play a rogue talk with the DM beforehand about un-crittable creatures. If undead/constructs/etc. are going to appear with the same frequency as any other creature type, then fine. You can Aid Another/Flank/Throw Alchemist's Fire during those encounters, making the best of a bad situation just as the wizard would vs. Iron Golems.

But if uncrittable creatures are going to be the central villains of the campaign (as the undead often can be,) then you may want to talk with your DM about swapping out the Sneak Attack ability for something else, or rearranging your ability scores so that you don't rely quite so heavily on SA for all your damage potential.

 

[Darmanicus]

Re critting undead.....

How about a feat that allowed a character who could channel positive energy to crit them by using a turn attempt?

Im hoping me DM will allow a positive energy burst weapon that crits undead without using any turn attempts although I'm not sure what the mod for that would be. I think it would be at most +1 considering its limitations.

Any thoughts, (sorry, don't mean this as a thread hijack)?

 

[Gort]

I understand you were frustrated, but why bother hacking inneffectually at the mummy when you can be useful someplace else? Go flank the evil cleric. Start reading scrolls, using wands, or throwing alchemical items. Trip the monster or disarm it or sunder weapons or throw your cloak over its head, or do just about anything except stand like a lump and poke at some wussy monster that's no threat to your party anyhow.

Well, it wasn't actually me playing the rogue, so it didn't bother me exceptionally - I was the fighter, having difficulty overcoming damage reduction of a different kind...