Feats and Skills by Stat

[silentounce]

You know, I think I'm actually fine with that.

For the first time in, well, ever, I'm thinking you could run a D&D game without any magicians at all and still be able to use the whole Monster Manual. That's actually kind of impressive.

And it sounds like PHB2 is going to include some more arcane and divine stuff, and if they're introducing more power sources in it as well, then it may be that they decided to front-load the martial characters into the first PHB intentionally. There are 4 martial classes in this first PHB, double the number of each of the other two types of classes, so it kind of makes sense that there would be more martial options listed.

You shouldn't have to buy PHB2 for that. You shouldn't have to buy anything besides the core books in order to play a complete, well-rounded game. Despite this, I wouldn't be surprised if they front loaded anything. They're in the business of making money after all.

 

[am181d]

"Physical Stat" does not translate to "For Martial Characters." Paladins are going to benefit from many of these feats as much as anyone. Most characters are going to want some "physical stat" feats or all "physical stat" feats. Few (at most two) will rarely want them.

If you recheck the original numbers to avoid double counting, you'll see that approximately 75% of the "stat" feats are physical, which is about what you'd want to see...

(...I assume. I didn't really do any math myself, but it sounded convincing when I said it.)

 

[Zurai]

Why? Why would I want to see 75% of feats devoted purely to physical stats? To my mind, it should be 50/50 - or, more precisely, as close to 16.67/16.67/16.67/16.67/16.67/16.67 as possible. There shouldn't be a vast gulf between the usefulness of physical vs mental stats.

 

[bjorn2bwild]

My problem is that, in and of themselves, the mental stats do nothing. Int affects Reflex defense - but so does Dex, and Dex also affects Initiative, ranged attacks, and ranged damage. Wis and Cha only affect Will defense. None of the three mental stats do anything in and of themselves except affect defenses. All three of the physical stats have additional benefits. And, on top of that, there are only 16 feats that require mental stats (and over half of those are Wis-based) compared to well over three times that number that require physical stats.

I think it's a little misleading to say that Dex pulls double duty but Wis and Cha do not. It all depends on class.

For example, for most Wizards, Reflex Defense, Ranged attacks, and Ranged damage are all governed by Int, not dex.

For some Warlocks, Cha, is used for attacks and damage, not dex.

For some clerics, Wis is used for attacks and damage, not dex.

To put it more bluntly, there is very little reason at all to even have a mental stat above 10 if you're not playing a class that makes extensive use of it.

You're right (if you want a terrible will defense), but how is that really any different than any other previous incarnation of DnD?

In 4e, Physical stat focused characters need to worry about one mental stat (wis or cha, for will defense) and in many cases, secondary effects are based off of either wis or cha.

Likewise, if you don't care about initiative, Con is the only physical stat you need to pay attention to if you're a mental stat focused character.

My point is, the pendulum swings both ways.

 

[Saeviomagy]

My problem is that, in and of themselves, the mental stats do nothing. Int affects Reflex defense - but so does Dex, and Dex also affects Initiative, ranged attacks, and ranged damage.

The only real material difference between dex and int is that dex affects initiative and int affects more skills. The ranged weapon thing is more or less immaterial unless you're a class that's specifically focussed on ranged weapon use or dex specifically. Otherwise you just take heavy thrown weapons (for str) or choose a blasting power that uses your prime stat. Nobody ever needs to 'fall back' on a normal ranged weapon attack unless they make really bad character choices.

Wis and Cha only affect Will defense. None of the three mental stats do anything in and of themselves except affect defenses.

And skills. Lots of skills. Lots of skills that will still be relevant even if you do not train them.

All three of the physical stats have additional benefits. And, on top of that, there are only 16 feats that require mental stats (and over half of those are Wis-based) compared to well over three times that number that require physical stats.

All three of the physical stats have a very small number of skills they affect. As has been pointed out, a ton of the physical stat feats are proficiencies. Mostly it seems like the mental stat feats have been written to encourage you to take a 13 in a stat that's not core to your class. And since most of the mental stat classes ONLY depend on their appropriate mental stat in most other ways, I consider this a good thing.

Oh, and unless you're focussed around melee weapons and are not a rogue, strength only benefits your opportunity attacks.

 

[tallyrand]

In interest of furthering the discussion, I edited the original post to add Skills by stat, here's what I added:

*SKILLS*
STR (1 Skill)
- Athletics

CON (1 Skill)
- Endurance

DEX (3 Skills)
- Acrobatics
- Stealth
- Thievery

INT (3 Skills)
- Arcana
- History
- Religion

WIS (5 Skills)
- Dungeoneering
- Heal
- Insight
- Nature
- Perception

CHA (4 Skills)
- Bluff
- Diplomacy
- Intimidate
- Streetwise