Feats & Fighters

[WalterKovacs]

Tell me more about why it's not such a bad nerf - I have a Come and Get It fighter in my game and we will have to decide whether or not to implement this nerf.

It does less damage, and no longer autopulls ... but it is a weapon attack vs. will, and should now hit much more often. The increased hit chance vs. lower damage is probably a good trade (and it does mark everyone in the burst, even ones that would not have been able to get pulled, for example if the number of enemies in the burst is greater than 8 for example.

My default position is to leave the power as it currently is, not so much on power considerations - whether or not CaGI is overpowered in some absolute sense, in my view it hasn't proved to be so at my table - but because I'm irritated at WotC apparent determination to reverse all the design innovations that made 4e the first modern version of D&D.

The change addresses the "Come and Get It gives fighters magical powers" thing by at least making it a will attack to pull the enemy (which doesn't automatically work) but the power itself was also the best choice for all fighters because of it's ability to pull enemies next to them and marking them, which is amazing for a defender. Even with the lower damage, it still achieves the same goals ... it just doesn't automatically put every enemy in range into the annoying position of being stuck next to the super sticky fighter.

 

[Aegeri]

My initial reaction was based on the fact the pull isn't guaranteed anymore and the attack isn't as good (as it's just a plain 1[W] without strength). But now that I've discussed it more, the fact it targets will and is a weapon attack means it's pretty damn reliable on hitting anyway (especially as fighters are ridiculously accurate as it is). The other benefit, which I didn't immediately realize is that it's a close burst 3 attack now, not a burst then an attack to mark. The result is that it will always mark things in that close burst 3, even if creatures within the burst cannot be pulled. This has its ups and downs over the original, so it isn't anywhere near as "Nerfed" as it might appear on the surface. It's still a really good choice, it's just not an automatic choice that you take regardless of what you're doing.

Edit: Curses! You win this time Walter! But next time I'll get you and your little dog too!

 

[Tony Vargas]

The nerf to C&GI is not as extreme as it could have been.

Making it weapon keyword, STR vs Will means it hits more often. This is the only improvement, and it's even less of an improvement than it apears to be.

Moving the pull to the hit line is the big nerf, it means that not every target is pulled next to you. Every target is still marked, but the mark is only enforceable against those you hit. Before, C&GI, meant every enemy w/in 3 that could be pulled became adjacent and was marked, thus subject to mark punishment. Even if you missed them, they were pulled, so you could also use an Action Point to deliver a second Close Burst 1 attack to them, if you really wanted to lay it on thick. So, no mark-punishment, and no follow-up attacks vs enemies whose WILL you miss.

Finally, the damage is nerfed: you lose the STR bonus. This probably makes up for attacking WILL as far as average damage throughput is concerned.


[MENTION=78116]Aegeri[/MENTION]: I'm sorry, but this will do nothing to stop the whining. It's now a Weapon attack vs Will. That exceeds the reach of the weapon. The flavor text is still the same lame thing it was, even though there's 3x as much of it. The added flavor text could have been used to present alternate ways of visualizing the power, but, no, we're stuck with it. It can still pull non-melee types, it can still pull helpless characters.


The 'Force the Battle' nerf is also egregious. This is a capstone power, it shouldn't be outperformed by Rain of Steel or Reaper's Stance - but, as far as sweeping away lesser foes foolish enough to start their turns adjacent to you, it is. Sad.


One thing that's not a nerf, but still notable, is that Combat Challenge is still an immediate interrupt, limiting the fighter's mark-punishment to once/round. The Knight's aura-punishment is 1/turn.

It's similar to the boost the Theif recieved, with it's SA damage being changed from 1/round to 1/turn. Similiar, except for the fact that the Rogue promptly got errata'd to have the same benefit.

Not that I held out much hope that the Fighter would get an upgrade to his mark-punishment to bring it closer to the Knight's.

 

[Aegeri]

Restricting it to targets you can see is minor, but a reduction in power

There is no change here, the original power only worked against creatures you can see. Being blinded was one of the most effective ways of completely stopping a CaGI fighter dead.

Edit:

Target: Each enemy in the burst you can see

So it never really worked against invisible enemies or if you were blind in the first place. I admit though that if you could find an invisible creature to 1 square it was in, you could hit it with the original powers burst anyway - but that was very unreliable.

 

[pemerton]

I think CaGI was always limited to targets you can see.

Otherwise, Tony's analysis seems right to me.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The class feature feats are, in some cases, unprecedented feat taxes.

The Fighter, for instance, can waste 2 feats (and lose an encounter power) to get one use of power strike that functions something like a modest-level encounter power. Two feats for what amounts to an even trade.

The Knight or Slayer, OTOH, can pay a one-feat tax, turn in one of several Power Strikes (no great loss), to get a high-level (up to his level) fighter encounter power. Quite possibly a decent trade, if the power does something unique enough (any Close Burst encounter power, for instance).

The Rogue and Theif, OTOH, can trade backstab for an encounter power or vice-versa, for only one feat, though the Rogue will need Melee Training to make any real use of it. (So, really, 2.)

So, the fighter gets some of it's premier powers nerfed in one article, and is feat-taxed at tripple the rate of the Knight/Slayer or Rogue/Theif. That sends a message.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think CaGI was always limited to targets you can see.

Otherwise, Tony's analysis seems right to me.

My mistake for looking at the summary of changes first, instead of looking at the old power first. The summary said 'tightens the rules for which targets can be affected,' so, of course, I was looking for a change to the target line. Seeing a very simple target line, I assumed that the old one was 'each enemy in burst.'

 

[Aegeri]

Actually strictly speaking it's completely true. Come and Get it had two distinct target lines, just that one was never written anywhere in the power. The first was the close burst 3, pull all enemies within the burst you can see effect. The second was a standard close burst 1, which was not affected by line of sight or other considerations. In this way it was possible to hit creatures you couldn't see with the second attack - albeit very difficult to do so as you needed to know where they were. Now invisible enemies and stuff you can't see is never affected - even if they are adjacent to you.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I suppose. I'm not going to push it, though. The main thing is, it's no longer going to be as effective in setting up mark punishments or an AP-&-Close Burst attack. A trick that was just glorious, one of the true 'highlight reel' worthy fighter combos... Insanely dangerous though it was.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Overall this is a pretty good pair of articles. At least the options are there, even if they are not working out very well. The feat costs are still too high.