Feats 'n' Skills Magic System

[Xorial]

Read over the file last night. Seems to be a well thought out approach. Don't know if it would be right for what I do, but seems like it works pretty well. I found the part where you talked about the Scholar class. That is a novel approach. My question, is do you differentiate between divine & arcane magic? Do you restrict arcan practitioners from healing magic or anything?

 

[willpax]

Xorial wrote:

I found the part where you talked about the Scholar class. That is a novel approach.

Thank you. I wanted to create classes that could be equally viable as mgic-using or non-magic using classes.

Xorial wrote:

My question, is do you differentiate between divine & arcane magic? Do you restrict arcan[e] practitioners from healing magic or anything?

I have a life magic school that expands on necromancy. In that school you could learn all the basic healing--damage, poison, disease. Raise dead is not explicitly mentioned (I prefer ressurection to be a very rare event).

I also have (in a rougher state) a divine magic system that uses a power point pool that is partially dependent on the number of worshippers a cleric leads; special feats then allow the cleric to use the power points for various purposes. I wanted a mechanic that more closely captured the "divine magic is the collective power of believers" rationale. I'll post it once I've got it in a more complete form.

Zerakon wrote:

Maybe if it had some examples of casting, I could grok it more...

That makes sense to me. I'll try to write up some basic examples (with comparisons to the sorc) and post them, perhaps tonight if I have the time.

Zerakon wrote:

Again, this could be my fried brain talking.

I understand. I've just returned from an overnight retreat related to work, and I feel fairly fried right now myself.

Thank you both for taking the time to look over it. The feedback helps.

 

[Macbeth]

I haven't read it all, but I must say that I like what I've read, reminds me of GURPS in a way (which is actually a good thing)

 

[Xorial]

Anther thing that you might consider including in a post, is examples of how you could get spell effects that approximate the spells in the core rules. Don't say you havent, lol. I bet you have done this already when creating the system. That would be a mechanic a DM could use to convert existing material to this system.

 

[willpax]

Comparison: Feat 'n Skills Mage versus the standard sorcerer

(I'm using 3.0 because I haven't bought 3.5, if that matters)

I'll use the standard ability score array, but maximize it differently:

Sorc: str 8, dex 14, con 13, int 10, wis 12 cha 15.

Mage: str 8, dex 10, con 13, int 15, wis 12, cha 14.

Let's assume that both are human to maximize feat potential.

First Level:

Sorc: 5 hp. +0 BAB. Has 12 skill points (spellcraft 4, other skills 8). Has 2 feats that can be used for anything. Knows 4 cantrips (mage hand, flare, light, resistance) and 2 first level spells (for damage, magic missile and sleep). Capabilities: 1d4+1 magic missile (no save) cast up to 4 times per day. Can also sleep, do minor telekinesis, and give small bonuses and minuses.

Mage: 7 VP, +0 BAB. Has 40 skill points: for maximum flexibility, this mage uses all but 8 skill points to max out 7 magical skills plus arcane awareness. 3 feats: arcane ability, conjuration (for flexible damage, although one of the evocation skills would do just as well), enchantment. Magical skills: creation (+6), forces (+6), travel (+6), compel (+6), emotion (+6), curses (+6), charm (+6). Capabilities: forces: can lift up to 175 lbs. a short way (3 VP); do 3d6 damage with one spell (spell roll 11, save DC 16), then rest for 7 hours; or do 1d6 damage (spell roll 8, 3 VP each) twice before resting. Most enchantments will have a save of DC 15 (for one powerful spell) or less. After such casting, the mage will be at 1 vitality point, being more vulnerable in combat.

The first level mage is much more flexible, and (within certain limits) much more powerful (especially if material components are used). Total damage capability edges slightly to the sorc., especially if saves are taken into account.

6th level

Sorc: Average 23 hp. +3 BAB. Has total 18 skill points. Now knows fireball (5d6 dam. save DC 16), casting 4 times per day. Can also cast magic missile 7 times per day (7d4+7, no save) and Melf's acid arrow 6 times (total 12d4 dam., no save). Has great flexibility in spell selection, but will still be rather narrow in capabilities (only 2 second level spells known).

Mage: Average 30 VP, +0 BAB. Has 93 total skill points after increasing intelligence at 4th level. If the mage maxes out on skills taken at beginning and takes school specialization and 3 skill focuses in conjuration, the conjuration skills are now at +15 (with increased save DCs), and the enchantment skills are at +11. Forces could now be used to 5d6 force damage (spell roll DC 22, save DC 20, VP 11, takes 3 rounds to cast safely) against one target. To get the 20 ft. radius that the fireball has, the mage would be reduced to 1d6 damage over that radius. If an inexpensive material component is used, the mage can cast this three times before needing to rest for 5 hours (so potentially 9 times over the course of a day if the enemies conveniently arrive far enough apart, but 4 is probably a more likely number). The mage is also quite good at charms, curses, and other such things, and is even able to teleport somewhat safely now.

So, the sorcerer is still somewhat better at widespread damage dealing, but the mage is more flexible. Keep in mind that if the mage actually kills people, he or she will be forced to try corruption checks. Also keep in mind that anyone with arcane awareness high enough or close enough will be aware of the mage (which may not be a good thing).

Beyond that, the comparisons get even stranger to make. Overall, the mage is much more flexible, but can't cast as many spell as often. The mage is forced to make spell rolls, but can generally create much higher save DCs as well (although the sorc has several no-save damage spells). The flexibility-within-limits of the spell skills versus the grab-bag approach of the Vancian system makes a mechanical conversion system difficult; the only advice I would give is to focus on the most commonly used spells and find a skill that produces a similar effect. In earlier incarnations I tried to mimic the power level of the standard system, but eventually gave up.

Does that help?

 

[willpax]

After looking over the numbers a bit more, I find myself wondering if this system needs some toning down. In an earlier version, it was so expensive to cast spells that the power levels seemed justified; in the latest, I've reduced VP costs significantly, especially for the mid-level spells.

Some possible further revisions (if people find this system to be too powerful):

1. Don't add primary spellcasting stat bonus to saving throw. This is a holdover from regular D&D which may not be needed. The saving throw is already included in the level effect, which means that it helps in multiple ways during one spell already. If the caster wants to make a spell harder to save against, he or she can increase the DC of the spell roll and enhance the spell (thus using the relevant stat again).

2. Increasing the complexity a bit more, making the skill ranks more important. This would probably be a flat increase based on complexity, so that easy spells stayed the same, moderate spells were +2 harder, hard spells +4, and complex spells +6. The effect that would have would be to make the complex spells much more difficult to cast at low levels (hurting the dabbler, and making the young magician have to sweat out spell rolls for flashier effects).

I appreciate all of you who have taken the time to look over what is a rather lengthy document. I'll be happy to answer further questions (or create an answer if one isn't there).

 

[willpax]

We ran the rules through a fairly long session this weekend. The overall feedback is very positive.

My main concern has been the ease with which casters can jack up the save DCs to some spells that are usually innocuous, like the charm person style spells. I think it may be worthwhile to not add the primary spellcasting stat to the save DC, especially since casters are much more flexible with level.

I did like the choices the casters had, although they are still in the steep part of the learning curve, which slowed play down slightly. After one intense fight, the main caster was down to 2 VP—yet he bluffed his way the rest of the adventure.

One feature he fastened on was the relative power of antimagic—if you have the skills, you can quickly make other spellcasters much less useful. We've yet to have a real magic duel, although such things are much more likely with this mechanic than with the core rules.

At least after one serious playtest, things don't look unbalanced.