Feats to make weapon size more significant

Square Peg

First Post
So it seems to be pretty widely accepted that if you want to do the big damage, Two-Handed Weapons is the way to go. The Power Attack 2 for 1 deal (or 3 for 1, lol Leap Attack) makes putting out frankly embarrassing amounts of damage pretty easy.

This is not yet another Two-handed vs Two-weapon thread, btw.

Anyway, in my next game (Pathfinder, btw) I'm looking at how to make similar feats that give a similar boon to characters who want to focus on defense or precision. So I'm modifying Combat Expertise and making another feat I've tentatively named Precision Strike.

Combat Expertise: Prerequisites: Int 13.
Benefit: You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or full-attack action with a melee weapon. Subtract an amount up to your Intelligence modifier +2 (or your base attack bonus, whichever is lower, minimum 1) from your melee attack rolls for 1 round. Add the same amount as a Dodge bonus to your armor class for 1 round. If you are attacking with a one handed weapon, and not attacking with any other weapon in the round, the dodge bonus instead is equal to 1.5 times the attack penalty, rounded down.

The Int mod +2 modifier is a slight variation of the Pathfinder rules. Anyway, this will let someone more fencing-oriented or doing sword-and-board get more bang for their buck. I was debating doing a 2 for 1 deal, but that seemed like going a bit too far.

Precision Strike: Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or full-attack action with a melee weapon. Add an amount up to your Dexterity modifier +2 (or your base attack bonus, whichever is lower, minimum 1) too your attack rolls for 1 round. If an attack made in this round is successful, subtract 2 points from the weapon damage for every 1 point of attack bonus you gain from this feat. If the weapon damage drops to zero or below, your attack does no damage, and any extra effects the attack might have (sneak attack damage, ability drain, elemental damage) does not occur. If you are attacking with a single light weapon, and not attacking with any other weapon in the round, you may only subtract 1 point of damage for each point of attack bonus from this feat.
For example, Lidda is a eighth level Rogue with a +2 Flaming Rapier, a Dex of 16 and a Strength of 12. She does a Precision Strike on a flat-footed opponent, and adds 2 to her attack roll. She hits, and rolls her weapon damage, 1D6 +3 for a total of 6. She subtracts 4 from this damage, and ends up with 2. Since her weapon damage was greater than zero, she adds her sneak attack damage and the extra 1D6 fire damage from the flaming property of her rapier. Her second attack that round also gets a +2 bonus to attack, and also hits. Unfortunately, she rolls a 1 on the weapon damage die and only does 4 damage. This is reduced to zero damage, and so she does not get to add her sneak attack damage, nor the fire damage from the flaming property.

So, what do you think? Does it seem balanced? Do you think it will work in game? Am I a terrible fool who throw in the towel and burn my DMG in shame? Let me Know! :D
 

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I don't see anybody sacrificing potential damage that could possibly mean that a hit means no damage at all.

I don't see a big problem with your Combat Expertise. I

can't speak to the Pathfinder rules because I know little about them.
 

1. Some people look to the eratta for leap attack and think it's actually 4x damage, but it's debatable.

2. I'll just list off some useful precision damage sources that exist already:
Duelist prestige class: Up to +3d6 precision damage
Swashbuckler: +int to damage
Deadly Defense feat: +1d6 damage when fighting defensively and having nothing in the offhand.

The Einhander feat doesn't add damage, but gives a bunch of other boosts useful if using only one light / 1H weapon.

Your CE: Kinda complex and I don't like it. the int +2 option will quickly be the weaker choice for nearly any full BAB build, by level 3-5, IMO, making it hardly worth including as written.
Precision Strike: REALLY weak, has that +2 mod thing that I think quickly becomes obsolete, and...is actually worse for the one group (single light weapon) I'd expect it designed for? I'm not sure. You word it like it's a bad thing, but it looks as written to be a better trade value. In any case, don't particularly like this feat either, and the typicla rule is other thna shrinking weapons and their related base damage, you never reduce damage done below 1 (barring damage reduction). What I mean is...a silver dagger with a warrior of str 10 does d4-1 damage. It never does 0 damage, though. It always does at least 1 damage. I'm aware you don't want rogues to break the system by getting the max attack bonus, not caring how much their damage is reduced, and then still doing at least 1 and triggering SA. I think the problem is trying to balance the mechanic with a future result to begin with, though.
 

1. Some people look to the eratta for leap attack and think it's actually 4x damage, but it's debatable.

If you really want to go crazy with Leap Attack:

Level 10 Frenzied Berserker with Supreme Power Attack
-10 to hit to get +40 to damage with a two-handed weapon.

Add in Leap Attack and the +40 becomes +80 to damage.

Give your frenzied berserker a valorous weapon (at a cost of +1) and you get another power attack multiple and you're up to +120 on the charge. Not counting the weapon damage, any magic & strength damage, etc.

Then, give him levels in Barbarian with the Lion Totem variant to get the Pounce ability and you're up to at least 4 attacks on the charge, all at +120 to damage.

And, since you probably don't care about your AC at this point, take the Shock Trooper feat which lets you trade AC bonus instead of Base Attack Bonus - that way, you can still hit everything you charge.
 

2. I'll just list off some useful precision damage sources that exist already:
Duelist prestige class: Up to +3d6 precision damage
Swashbuckler: +int to damage
Deadly Defense feat: +1d6 damage when fighting defensively and having nothing in the offhand.

To that list, I'll add the Shiba Protector (OA Monk PrCl) who gets to add his Wis bonus to Att & Damage rolls.
 

If you really want to go crazy with Leap Attack:

Level 10 Frenzied Berserker with Supreme Power Attack
-10 to hit to get +40 to damage with a two-handed weapon.

Add in Leap Attack and the +40 becomes +80 to damage.

Give your frenzied berserker a valorous weapon (at a cost of +1) and you get another power attack multiple and you're up to +120 on the charge. Not counting the weapon damage, any magic & strength damage, etc.

Then, give him levels in Barbarian with the Lion Totem variant to get the Pounce ability and you're up to at least 4 attacks on the charge, all at +120 to damage.

And, since you probably don't care about your AC at this point, take the Shock Trooper feat which lets you trade AC bonus instead of Base Attack Bonus - that way, you can still hit everything you charge.

You forgot Whirling Frenzy for an extra attack on that pounce, good sir. ;D

[sblock]Also useful:
Steadfast Boots (MIC; set vs. charge for x2 damage with any weapon) + Cometary Collision (PH2; can ready a charge to counter and interrupt anyone who tries to charge past your "charge radius"). :)
There's also boots of the battle charger (also MIC), to charge as a standard 2/day, instead of cometary collision. But that's limited and some DMs might not let you take the swift action to activate the boots as part of your ready action. Also, to use both boots, you'd be paying extra for one of them to stack it.[/sblock]
 

Your CE: Kinda complex and I don't like it. the int +2 option will quickly be the weaker choice for nearly any full BAB build, by level 3-5, IMO, making it hardly worth including as written.
Yeah, the Int limit is from the Pathfinder beta, and on second thought I don't really like it (and neither do they since they took it out in the final). The 1.5 for sword and board or fencer is what I'm after.

Precision Strike: REALLY weak, has that +2 mod thing that I think quickly becomes obsolete, and...is actually worse for the one group (single light weapon) I'd expect it designed for? I'm not sure. You word it like it's a bad thing, but it looks as written to be a better trade value. In any case, don't particularly like this feat either, and the typicla rule is other thna shrinking weapons and their related base damage, you never reduce damage done below 1 (barring damage reduction). What I mean is...a silver dagger with a warrior of str 10 does d4-1 damage. It never does 0 damage, though. It always does at least 1 damage. I'm aware you don't want rogues to break the system by getting the max attack bonus, not caring how much their damage is reduced, and then still doing at least 1 and triggering SA. I think the problem is trying to balance the mechanic with a future result to begin with, though.

Well, it's been argued that attack is worth more than damage, what with all the extra dice you can stack on an attack for relatively cheap (elemental, sneak attack, feat stuff) so I wanted to have it be relatively limited. I don't want someone able to land tertiary and...um... fourth attacks on a high AC target, when all their extra dice still makes it well worth it. Also, I might have worded it badly, but for light weapons the damage to attack trade is 1 to 1, rather than 2 to 1 for other weapons.
So, yeah, a warrior with a strength of 10 with a silver dagger would be ill advised to use this feat, but a rogue with stats that make sense might be willing to sacrifice a few points of damage (and their off-hand attacks) to hit a higher AC target. These feats are mostly about letting characters not feel useless in certain situations.
 

I realize that, but you should also consider that the 2H fighter against a high AC target always has the option to full power attack, so on the rare occasions he does hit, he does tremendous damage.

Also, IME, against high AC targets is where the group play as opposed to single PC optimizing affects things. Parties will use boost spells and bardic music to increase attack bonus; "can't fail" minor curses and other debuffs on the enemy; try and do "sacrificial lemming" grappling attempts (ie, don't have the feat to do it w/o drawing an AoO, so a stream of them tries until the guy runs out of AoO), since once a foe is grappled, he tends to be very easy to beat on regardless of original AC; aid anothers and flanking...

Attack bonus is worth more than damage, definitely. I'm not entirely sure the standard definition of 2-for-1 is completely accurate, but it's close. Even so, parties can tend to get by against high AC opponents already. If you really wanted to have such a feat, I think it'd be better to just limit it to 5 or so, like Combat Expertise does, to limit potential abuse.
 

Hmm, a 5 point limit is a good idea, and probably less messy than the dex-mod based one. Maybe make an improved feat with a high base attack req or something. Well, anyway, I'll give it a playtest and see how it goes.
 

Part of my dislike is that I don't think it's really much help, except to be abused with SA and other such high bonus damage options (like strike maneuvers from Tome of Battle...) if you followed the standard of minimum of 1 damage the game normally assumes.

People fighting with a single weapon and no shield, or at least not going the shield bash route if they use one, is the demographic I figured you were going for. Which is fine, the game does gimp them rather badly. But such a character isn't facing TWF penalties, isn't lowering his attack bonus for Power Attack*, and in general has more feat slots open and so will be more likely to get things like weapon focus to further improve to hit chance. Simply put, these guys less so than most melee characters, actually need a to hit bonus, IMO. Sure, it's always nice. But they probably would be better off making up for the AC loss of no shield or the damage loss of not going 2H.

*Hmm...side thought. How would these things interact with a mounted character using a lance? Which by RAW (not how i rule it), would qualify you for 2H PA numbers even though you're using it 1H, on top of at least benefitting more from CE if not the second feat. Maybe you're like me and just don't allow it, but for those that do, would you consider doing so to "break" your houseruled feats?
 

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