Feats

[Cheiromancer]

I don't understand your system.

I probably should have specified that I was talking to Greybar. Still, I appreciate the examples. Even if they weren't in response to me query.

***

Is Armor Skin +2? It is +1 in the online SRD, so I thought it must have received errata. But now that I check, I don't see anything. I just emailed Jans about it. I thought it was terribly weak at +1. For +2.... well, it is still pretty meh, but it isn't terrible.

Fast healing, though, I agree is an excellent value- I'd take it anytime. Even at +1 hp/round it would rock for healing up between battles. For combat use you need a considerably higher rate before it is worth taking a second one.

Improved SR - if it was a dynamic bonus (i.e. changed Drow SR from 11 + character level to 13 + character level) it might be worth it. But I can't see Irix taking it so he could have a SR 22 instead of SR 20. We don't have these items nailed yet, I don't think.

Great Charisma etc. - I think you are right that they are weak at +1. Although making them so cheap that someone might actually take them means that we really need to figure out something to do with DevCrit and Death Attack, etc..

re: Combat Prescience

I'm the kind of DM who would interpret foresight generously, but its vagueness is such that many people avoid it like the plague. With an uncooperative DM it is basically a +2 bonus to two stats- kinda a waste of a 9th level spell slot.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I probably should have specified that I was talking to Greybar.

Don't worry, I was ignoring both of you - I'd started that post days ago, and forgotten about it.

I'm the kind of DM who would interpret foresight generously

So am I, and the feat is weak - I think a switch to (Ex) with the same prereqs would still be a little underpowered. Honestly, though, I'm guessing - I've never DMed a game with 57th-level characters.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

OverCrit/DevCrit

As we've started screwing with all kinds of epic feats...

Part of the problem is that Overwhelming Critical is too weak (+1d6. Whoopee!), and DevCrit too strong (you're dead). It would be nice to spread the love out a little between them.

I guess the philosophical question is do we want an instakill effect?

Dunno. How about this? Makes DevCrit more of a gamble.

Overwhelming Critical [Epic]
Prerequisites: Str 23, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (chosen weapon), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (chosen weapon).
Benefit: When using the weapon you have selected, the critical multiplier on a successful critical hit increases by 1. Creatures immune to critical hits can’t be affected by this feat.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a different type of weapon.


Devastating Critical [Epic]
Prerequisites: Str 23, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (chosen weapon), Overwhelming Critical (chosen weapon), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (chosen weapon).
Benefit: If you score a critical hit and deal enough damage to prompt a Fortitude Save against massive damage, increase the opponent's Save DC to 25. In addition, if you are using the Power Attack feat, further increase the Save DC by the amount which you subtracted from your Attack Roll. Creatures immune to critical hits can’t be affected by this feat.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a different type of weapon.

 

[Cheiromancer]

As you know, I'd prefer to borrow rather than reinvent the wheel. Here's one of UK's feats, lifted verbatim from Ascension v1.6

IMPROVED CRITICAL MULTIPLIER (EX)
You can increase the power of your critical hits.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +12, Greater Weapon Specialization,
Str 17, Weapon Specialization.
Benefit: You can increase the power of your critical hits. If the weapons
critical multiplier is x2 it becomes x3. If the weapons critical multiplier
is x3 it becomes x5. If the weapons critical multiplier is x4 it becomes x7.
Special: You could have this feat replace the Overwhelming Critical
feat from the Epic Level Handbook.

Similarly, he dumps Devastating Critical in favor of this feat:

GREATER CRITICAL MULTIPLIER [EPIC] (EX)
You can increase the power of your critical hits.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +22, Epic Weapon Specialization,
Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical Multiplier, Str 25,
Weapon Specialization.
Benefit: You can increase the power of your critical hits. If the weapons
critical multiplier was originally x2 it becomes x4. If the weapons critical
multiplier was originally x3 it becomes x7. If the weapons critical
multiplier was originally x4 it becomes x10.
Special: You could have this feat replace the Devastating Critical feat
from the Epic Level Handbook.

Any objection to following his lead?

And, of course, some of his other feats replicate magic items. A lot of them are in rough form (cf Automatic Writing for one that needs some polish) but in general they are pretty robust.

My intention is, once exams are out of the way, to return to fine-tuning the seeds. Hopefully the question of feats (and item-feats) will be more settled this week. The habit of min-maxing characters tends to turn up broken features at every turn- but I think that if DevCrit is tamed (and Terrifying Rage) we are in pretty good shape as far as Barbarian types are concerned.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

It's funny - one of my objections to OverCrit & DevCrit as they stand is the emphasis on the cleave feat chain - there is no equivalent for finesse fighters.

My objection to UK's feats are based on the fact that they exclude non-fighters, and don't reference Improved Critical - which seems counterintuitive. Also, the question remains - do we want an instakill effect? I'm not decided.

I'm curious why you have such faith in his sense of balance. I've yet to be persuaded on a great many points.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Hmmm. Good point on the prerequisites; I was looking at the mechanic for increasing the critical multiplier. And you are right that a finesse fighter should be able to score a devastating critical hit. Power Attack should be in there, and a high Strength, but Improved Critical in place of those cleave feats.

My faith in UK is largely based on the challenge system of CR/ECL. And the neat way he handles metamagic. And my thought is that if something is unbalanced, it gets worse the higher level you get. If his system is even mostly balanced for high epic play (where he focuses most of his attention), it should work more or less right for lower levels. Exceptions undoubtably exist, and room for much tinkering, but his system is as good as anything out there. For each broken element he introduces, he fixes one or two things that are broken in the official rules. Maybe his fixes can be improved, but at least hulking hurlers aren't crazy-broken in his system. And DevCrit builds are much more sane.

He is wary of absolute effects, as are we, and so he tends to curb them. I think you are more open to instakill effects (despite their being unfashionable), but I'd prefer to have them controlled. Get rid of half of them, and give some of the remainder the [death] descriptor or something.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I think I would prefer that this feat:

IMPROVED CRITICAL MULTIPLIER (EX)
You can increase the power of your critical hits.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +12, Greater Weapon Specialization,
Str 17, Weapon Specialization.
Benefit: You can increase the power of your critical hits. If the weapons
critical multiplier is x2 it becomes x3. If the weapons critical multiplier
is x3 it becomes x5. If the weapons critical multiplier is x4 it becomes x7.
Special: You could have this feat replace the Overwhelming Critical
feat from the Epic Level Handbook.

become this feat

IMPROVED CRITICAL MULTIPLIER [EPIC, GENERAL, FIGHTER]
You can increase the power of your critical hits.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +21, Improved Critical with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon.
Benefit: You can increase the power of your critical hits. If the weapon's
critical multiplier is x2 it becomes x3. If the weapon's critical multiplier
is x3 it becomes x5. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x4 it becomes x7.
Special: You could have this feat replace the Overwhelming Critical
feat from the Epic Level Handbook.

Any full BAB class could take it at 21st level, provided they'd sunk the required feats into it. It doesn't discriminate against finesse fighters, who are dear to my heart Rogues could take it at level 30 - but in competition with things like Dextrous Fortitude, it would be less obviously appealing. Multiclasses and Duelists some time in the 20s, depending on the Fighter/Rogue ratio in their build.

I also think that it has to be an [Epic] feat, btw. It's a complete no-brainer as it stands. What other feat would a 12th-level Fighter take? Or an 18th-level Fighter, for that matter? By relaxing the Prereqs, it becomes even more of a no-brainer, ergo it must be an epic feat - which is worth more than a regular one.

I don't favor Greater Critical Multiplier as it stands on the basis that

a) It's boring. Just more of the same.
b) It has the Str/Power Attack Prerequisite, which nerfs finessers again.

We could change b) with no problem; a) is my real objection, though.

I'd rather that whatever feat comes after Improved Critical Multiplier didn't reference the Multiplier at all. Or favour a wide threat range like DevCrit - which unbalances rapiers and scimitars. I'd still like it to be a possible Instakill (I know we're at variance here), but I'd like to link it to the Massive Damage mechanic: as it stands an unlucky creature can make the Fort Save vs. a DevCrit and then roll a 1 on the Massive Damage Save and still die - I've seen this happen (not in my game, I don't use DFMD at all), and it's kind of depressing.

How would you feel about this feat:

BRUTAL CRITICAL [EPIC, GENERAL, FIGHTER]
You can kill people with your critical hits. Especially mooks.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +25, Improved Critical, Improved Critical Multiplier and Weapon Focus with selected weapon.
Benefit: If you roll a natural '20' on your attack roll and subsequently confirm a critical hit, add a number equal to half your BAB to your opponent's target DC if you force a Saving Throw against massive damage.
Special: You could have this feat replace the Devastating Critical
feat from the Epic Level Handbook.

It doesn't favour weapons with a wide crit range, it doesn't discriminate against finessers or Barbs/Paladins/Rangers, it won't kill opponents of a higher CR than you 50% of the time, and rewards a natural '20' somewhat. It's more like a moderated vorpal effect. I think it would still be worth taking, but it's not such an obvious choice. It kind of assumes that a modified DFMD mechanic is employed, as well: threshold = 50 +10/level above 20, or whatever.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Random, maybe-balanced feats for Shadowdancers

Occluded Soul [Epic](Ex)
Prerequisites: Wis 25, Bluff 42 ranks, Slippery Mind class feature
Benefits: You are difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance and detect spells, and location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted against you or any item in your possession, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 15 + your level.

Costing: Continuous slotless nondetection item = ([3 (level) x 5 (CL) x 2000] +5000 (component)) x 2 = 70K. Exceptional at 700K equivalence for CL5. Allow ability to scale with level/HD = ad hoc x2; 1.4M equivalence.


Unheard [Epic](Su)
You are utterly silent.
Prerequisites: Dex 25, Move Silently 24 ranks
Benefit: You and items in your possession make no sound, and cannot be heard with Listen checks. You may end or resume this effect (if, for example, you wish to speak with someone or cast a spell with a verbal component) as a free action on your turn.

Costing: Continuous slotless silence = 2 (level) x 3 (CL) x 2000 x 2 x 2 (mins) = 48K. Supernatural at 240K equivalence.


Unseen [Epic](Su)
Prerequisites: Dex 40, Hide 48 ranks, Hide in Plain Sight class ability
Benefits: You are invisible, together with any gear or items which you carry. Items you drop or put down become visible; items picked up disappear. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that you carry but that extends more than 10 feet from you becomes visible. You are not silenced, and certain other conditions can render you detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). Attacking does not cause your invisibility to end; you can end or resume the effect as a free action on your turn. A true seeing spell or effect penetrates your invisibility.

Costing: Continuous slotless greater invisibility item = 4 (level) x 7 (CL) x 2000 x 2 x 4 (rounds) = 448K. Supernatural at 2.24M equivalence.


Shadow Walker [Epic](Su)
Prerequisites: Jump 40 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 10 ranks, Shadow Jump class feature
Benefits: If you are in an area of shadowy illumination, as a standard action you may enter or leave the Plane of Shadow. In the region of shadow, you move at a rate of 50 miles per hour, moving normally on the borders of the Plane of Shadow but much more rapidly relative to the Material Plane. You predict perfectly where your travel will end.
You may travel to other planes that border on the Plane of Shadow, but this usage requires the transit of the Plane of Shadow to arrive at a border with another plane of reality. The transit of the Plane of Shadow requires 1d4 hours.

Costing: Use-activated slotless shadow-walk = 6 (level) x 11 (CL) x 2000 x 2 = 264K. Supernatural at 1.32M equivalence. Weighed 10 cross-class ranks against perfect prediction for shadow walk spell endpoint and likely 8-mile Shadow Jump ability by 36th-level.


Wraithlike [Epic](Su)
Prerequisites: Dex 50, Self-Concealment (x5), Unheard, Hide 76 ranks, Move Silently 76 ranks.
Benefit: You become incorporeal (and gain the incorporeal subtype). See the Monster Manual (p. 310) for details. You may end or resume this effect as a free action on your turn.

Costing: Continuous slotless ghostform (SC 103) = 8 (level) x 15 (CL) x 2000 x 2 x 4 (mins) = 1.92M. Supernatural at 9.6M equivalence. Ouch.

 

[Greybar]

Out of curiousity:

A true seeing spell or effect penetrates your invisibility.

So "See Invisible" or equivalent is not good enough? I don't necessary disagree, as an Epic Feat should be able to beat a second level spell, but it might need to be stated explicitly.

Good stuff - love it all in concept, but I really find myself wondering if True Seeing (via spell or gear or etc) will be a standard power for most opposition at Level 44.

Edit: to be more constructive - would it fit the "no absolutes" concept discussed before that even True Seeing would require a CL check of some kind to penetrate. Alternatively to reduce dice-rolling, maybe "only penetrated by True Seeing at CL more than Hide Skill - 10" or somesuch?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Out of curiousity:
So "See Invisible" or equivalent is not good enough? I don't necessary disagree, as an Epic Feat should be able to beat a second level spell, but it might need to be stated explicitly.

Good point. I hadn't even considered see invisibility - there's a danger that lower level effects don't even show up on the radar when I'm thinking about epic stuff.

Good stuff - love it all in concept, but I really find myself wondering if True Seeing (via spell or gear or etc) will be a standard power for most opposition at Level 44.

Edit: to be more constructive - would it fit the "no absolutes" concept discussed before that even True Seeing would require a CL check of some kind to penetrate. Alternatively to reduce dice-rolling, maybe "only penetrated by True Seeing at CL more than Hide Skill - 10" or somesuch?

I still don't know about 'no absolutes' - I'm less wary than Cheiro of them. Rather than escalating numbers, I kind of prefer the idea of shifting paradigms which trump successively weaker paradigms, e.g., with epic spells and nonepic spells:

[ward] > [slay] > death ward > finger of death etc.

It's tricky to gauge when one should simply override another, or force a OCLC, or whatever - that's part of the weighting of an 'epic benefit' of a seed.

It's also much harder with feats, of course. If a DM says that nondetection or mind blank + invisibility is effective against true seeing, there is always that defense as well (i.e. Occluded Soul + Unseen > true seeing).

[Ducks for cover].