Feeblemind and spell-like abilities

[plavi]

How would a feeblemind-spell effect spell-like ability? For example for a demon or devil to use their 'innate' teleport, tongues or whichever spell-like effect they can create?
I tend to think these abilities are more inborn and instinctual than really something to learn and cast, so feeblemind would be rather useless (in that effect at least).
The rules aren't quite clear on this, though the spell literally states 'unable to cast spells' and says nothing about abilities. What sayeth thou?

Grtz

Chris

"The subject's intelligence score drops to 1: roughly the intellect of a lizard. The creature is unable to cast spells, use Intelligence-based skills, or communicate coherently. Still, the creature knows who it's friends are and can follow them and even protect them. The creature remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle or wish spell is used to cancel the effects. Creatures who can cast arcane spells, such as sorcerers and wizards, or use arcane spell-like effects suffer a -4 penalty on their saving throws."

 

[hong]

Spell-like abilities are not spells, and so aren't affected by feeblemind. I'd certainly allow a feebleminded demon to teleport w/o error, although exactly where it goes may be randomly determined (because it's not thinking straight).

 

[Jeremy]

Without even the intelligence of an animal predator, I'd have the demon or dragon behave as a baby. Intelligence 1 is not a confused elderly person, or a distracted grade schooler, intelligence 1 isn't even an arrogant house cat. It's a toad that doesn't know enough to jump out of a cup of water being slowly heated to a boil around him.


I don't think I'd allow them to be able to figure out how their spell like abilities work, as it probably takes concentration and concentrated will power to enact a Meteor Swarm or Wish or a Teleport without Error. While they need not say certain words, pull strange components, or twitch their fingers in certain patterns, it's still magic that they are employing mentally.

Mentally they are about as intelligent as a newt. It doesn't understand the intricasies of instantaneous astral travel.

I'd allow a dragon for instance breath weapons, flight, full attack, but no spell like or sorcerer/divine spells. The spell says the victim can still defend itself so it's still going to lash out, but without tactics or spell back up.

But that's me.

 

[Berk]

*waves his "I'd have to agree with Jeremy" flag around*

 

[The Souljourner]

As Berk and Jeremy said... spell-like abilities take concentration to cast, just like normal spells. I wouldn't let an insect cast a spell, and same goes for someone feebleminded.

-The Souljourner

 

[plavi]

So far...

Hi Guys,

thanx for the advise so far, it is helping me. I am certainly convinced no normal way of tactics or plan is to be executed anymore by a INT 1 demon. However, just as a predator would (as which I see demons & devils too) when in a fight, that fight is on, instinctively and to survive. So I'd say if something like this happens (probably in a fight) the victim would certainly continue to fight, probably attacking the one most likely at that moment (most threatening, most ugly, whatever). And, when cornered, wounded and almost beaten, I think their ability like Teleport w/o error would be used to get as far away as fast away from the wicked evil PC's as possible (rather randon too I'd guess as hong suggested).

Using illusions etc, out of the question, but fireballs from a distance at the party because they look so menacing (and more likely than not enflaming his own minions that are in HTH with the party with it) is reasonable IMHO. It's instinct, raw power, or whatever demonic strength is driving it.

Or do you differ?

Rgds

 

[Jeremy]

I think that recognizing its better to hit them at a distance is the mark of a rational predator. 1 INT isn't even enough for predatory behavior, much less rational behavior.

And I can't bring myself to believe that a 7th level spell takes no intelligence to employ. Be it 1/day or at will, it's still some mighty powerful magicks to be able to traverse any where on the plane in the blink of an eye. If a 10 INT old man can forget he has better ways to do things, than a 1 INT balor demon doesn't even know he can teleport away much less remember to do so.

Think of it as alzheimers to the point the person is a drooling baby. Sure, opening a door is something that comes natural as breathing to him, but he can't seem to remember to do it, or how.

Much less how to transport himself instantly through the astral plane.

I don't think the balor can teleport, use his firestorm, use implosion, or do any other act of will power and concentration that summons magical energy. I think those require rational thought to employ, concentrated thought at that. And thought is the power feeblemind removes from him.

 

[plavi]

I know what you mean, but I do not agree. Alzheimer is an illness that lets you forget things. It doesn't make you stupid.

Just as a lizard isn't stupid. If it thinks it can eat you, it will attack you. If you prod it, it bites you. If you are an enemy, it spits at you (some of them). If you look too dangerous, it runs/flies/swims away. These have nothing to do with intelligence, but with generation upon generation of inborn, genetic habits that it has the second it is born.

And that is the way I see it with demons too. A Balor doesn't go to Balor kindergarten or read a manual 'how-to-smite-your-foes-using-magical-fire'. He just does. Doesn't think about it, doesn't learn it, just lashes out with whatever it is at a thought's notice. To the Balor the Teleport isn't some fifth level spell, he just kinda offhandedly decides he wants to be somewhere else, and voilá, there he is. Doesn't think about the how and why, just happens like that, always has happened like that, allways will.

The fact he may not use his powers cleverly or see through the character's illusions or whatever... that's something different of course.

I concede to you that it will not recognize the fact it is at a distance against some foes is better than agains others: if it is a Demon that has huge distance attacks, it will at all costs try to protect itself that way, or give up if the characters are protected against his fireballs. Likewise, a HTH monster demonic whatever will always close in for the kill, even if the party looks like just 6 tank-fighters loaded with HTH equipment. That's their thing, that's what they do.

 

[The Souljourner]

Keep in mind, Animals have intelligence 2. Intelligence 1 is dumber than your pet gerbil. Upon further reflection, I'd say only natural or extraordinary abilities can be used, and only in response to direct stimulus. It'll defend itself if attacked, but if not attacked, it'll just go about its business (unless it's hungry and thinks you're food). And while defending itself, it'll simply use it's natural weapons and abilities.

The thing about spell-like abilities is that they pretty much *are* spells. You cast them just like casting a spell, except there are no components.

Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted.

Something less intelligent than an animal can't possibly concentrate in that way. It's not like it just thinks and it happens... it takes a standard action, requires focused concentration.

Forget the alzheimer's tangent... think of a newborn... now lower the intelligence... is that something that's going to be able to concentrate on a spell? I don't think so.

-The Souljourner

 

[Jeremy]

I don't know. I just can't see Implosion as, "Oh, that happens when I point at someone." It's a 9th level spell. I see it as taking a tremendous amount of concentration and will to employ. And I cannot see someone with 1 INT picturing an area they want to be in, figuring out how to get there, then teleporting without error over there. ((If it takes no effort, concentration, intelligence, or will power, what's to keep them from constantly accidentally teleporting or imploding or fire storming?))

If a demon were down to 1 INT I'd run him as having reverted back to his most basic form. Rip, tear, shred, die.

No flying around using a flame whip, no teleporting to high ground and laying down a fire storm, I'd look at his stat block and make him an animal with 1 INT.

For a good portrayal of a 1 INT dragon, check out Brinedeath the Dog in PirateCat's story hour. Running along through the forest, jumping to reach flying objects that look neat, unaware that it is one of the most powerful creatures on the planet.

I think a 3 INT idiot would be blissfully ignorant of just about everything. A 2 INT sick man would be feral, acting only on instinct. And a 1 INT sap would be a drooling idiot who doesn't know any better then to not defecate on himself. I can't see someone like that traversing the Astral Plane to arrive instantaneously along the proper vector at a designated point on the prime material plane. I certainly can't see him opening gates to the Abyss or causing the fabric of reality to implode around an adventurer.

But if you think it should still be able to deal with rational logistics like range, duration, targetting, area of effects, and use his will to bend the Weave to his liking to produce magical effects as a 20th level sorcerer... Well, I think that phrase there should be rather telling. But it's up to you. That's just my opinion.