Feinting in Combat

[bensei]

TrizzlWizzl wrote:Yes, feinting is a standard action. No, it's not useless at all. You get to make a sneak attack (assuming you're a rogue) against your Dex-less opponent after a successful feint... what's so useless about that?

I do like the idea of fainting in combat, too.
But in which situation will it pay off for a non-rogue character?
Sacrificing a standard-action should be worth at least a +5 or +6 on the one next attack, and even this does not seem to be that good. And you have to have an opponent with a +6 dex bonus to AC...
I just never found a possible application for fainting for my bard character, so I'm interesed.

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

I do like the idea of fainting in combat, too.
But in which situation will it pay off for a non-rogue character?

Well, if you feint and have Expert Tactician, at least you'll break even if you succeed . But in general I agree with you; not very useful for non-rogues unless you are fighting Will-o-wisps.

 

[Sir Pentor]

And of course a 3rd lvl gladiator can do it as a move equivelant action, so he doesn't loose an attack from it. This gets pretty hardcore when a rogue multiclasses to gladiator...

 

[TrizzlWizzl]

I just never found a possible application for fainting for my bard character, so I'm interesed.

Well, it's true that Bluffing isn't as effective for PCs with no sneak attack capability. Still though, depriving an opponent his Dex+ to your attack is pretty strong. 'Losing' a standard action isn't all that harsh, especially when you can still do other stuff... do you have Tumble? Bluff, then use Tumble to get into flanking position... +2 to attack an apponent with no Dex+ is not too shabby (your buddy gets a +2 too). Couple that with starting up a bardic song and your round has been pretty productive.

 

[Vaxalon]

Feinting, using Bluff skill, isn't a typical head-feint or shoulder-feint. It's not a little weapon trick.

It's pointing over the guy's shoulder and shouting "Look! It's a gazebo!"

It's shouting "Trip him, Frank!" to an imaginary buddy across the way.

 

[bensei]

TrizzlWizzl wrote:
'Losing' a standard action isn't all that harsh, especially when you can still do other stuff... do you have Tumble? Bluff, then use Tumble to get into flanking position... +2 to attack an apponent with no Dex+ is not too shabby (your buddy gets a +2, too).

But you cannot attack in the same round, unless you are hasted, can you? Tumble = Move, Feint = Standard Action. So you sacrificy your attack(s) for this round. Tumbling and flanking is possible anyway.

 

[TrizzlWizzl]

But you cannot attack in the same round, unless you are hasted, can you? Tumble = Move, Feint = Standard Action. So you sacrificy your attack(s) for this round. Tumbling and flanking is possible anyway.

That's correct. You sacrifice your attack for the round. However using the method I described, on the next round you get, starting on your turn (depending on whether or not you're an 'ally' of yourself for Inspire Courage purposes... this is assuming you are):

• +3 to your attack/+1 damage
• +3 to your ally's attack (the one you're flanking with)/+1 damage
• opponent loses dex+ vs. your next attack (assuming you make one on your next turn)
• all other allies get +1 atk/+1 damage

So yeah, you've forgone one attack. IMO, you get a lot in return, especially at lower levels when survival is always a question mark.

 

[hong]

especially at lower levels when survival is always a question mark.

Indeed. A bard who habitually gets into melee combat is living dangerously.

 

[bensei]

TrizzlWizzl wrote:
You sacrifice your attack for the round. However using the method I described, on the next round you get, starting on your turn (depending on whether or not you're an 'ally' of yourself for Inspire Courage purposes... this is assuming you are):
o +3 to your attack/+1 damage
o +3 to your ally's attack (the one you're flanking with)/+1 damage
o opponent loses dex+ vs. your next attack (assuming you make one on your next turn)
o all other allies get +1 atk/+1 damage

Well, if you hit (instead of faint), tumble and start to sing you may get more. The faint itself is still trading an attack vs. a bonus of the opponents dex-bonus. So IMHO not really useful.

But now that I think about it:
Is there any concept (perhaps in class books) of fainting to escape from melee combat? So instead of attacking you faint (calling: 'Look behind you, a big spider!'), and if you succeed, you can use your move to run past the opponent (without a tumbling check) without being hit by AoO. Perhaps even with a stronger effect...

 

[Aryes]

I house ruled that you can only feint a creature that is already flanked.
The bluffing character doesn't necessarily have to be the one doing the flanking however.