#Feminism Is A Collection of 34 "Nanogames" From Designers Around The World

lowkey13 · May 9, 2017

*Deleted by user*

Hussar · May 9, 2017

MNblockhead said:
Hussar, who was calling for banning anything?

I've found the critiques here, for the most part, to be surprisingly civil and well written. Now, the fact that some of them were written by folks that didn't read the material is a bit of an eye roller, but even those posters brought something to the table.

ArchfiendBobbie said:
You're right. That's because #ExperimentalNanoGames wouldn't have been bringing politics into discussion to begin with.

The idea these games at all allow people to consider these ideas without being tied to their emotional responses? One good, hard look at this very thread proves that is wrong. Even some of us who agree with feminism, such as myself, reacted negatively to it because we don't like how the games portray feminism.

This very thread stands as a testament to why ENWorld's ban on politics is necessary. And as sad as it is for me to say this, I'm going to have to suggest that ban should extend to nanogames as well after this. It may mean we miss out on some news, but tell me if you honestly want to have this discussion again when the next set is about something like Black Lives Matter or Donald Trump.

Bold mine.

Looks like at least one person was calling for a ban. And that's what I was responding to.

ArchfiendBobbie · May 9, 2017

Hussar said:
Yes, because an RPG focused on racial issues would be such a terrible thing for the hobby that we shouldn't even acknowledge it's existence.

There are several out there where racial issues do come up. Call of Cthulhu, for example, has had advice in the past for how to deal with the racism and sexism inherent to 1920s America when playing the game, including advice for how to maturely handle both topics without offending anyone. I find it useful as a teaching tool on the history of racism in America and how that history shapes modern thinking.

I specified Black Lives Matter because the movement is extremely political. Racism can be discussed without getting into modern politics, and this site does have a ban on political discussions... a ban which these "games" are serving as a loophole to because we cannot discuss them without discussing politics. That is because these "games" are rooted deep in a political stance.

In short, I'm suggesting ENWorld close a loophole. Not a ban on discussions of racism, sexism, or the like in games.

Funny how games like FATAL have never raised this. Should we ban any mention of FATAL? Or, maybe Book of Vile Darkness, since it deals with mature themes that might offend someone out there.

FATAL I cannot civilly discuss. That is all I have to say about it.

As for the Book of Vile Darkness... Don't the forum content rules already ban discussing most of what's in that?

I find it absolutely baffling that we can discuss games where we play pathological murderers and torturers, preying on the innocent (Vampire the Masquerade for example) and nary an eyebrow is raised. But, a game which focuses on women's issues? Aw, Hell no. We must ban that and never even admit that it exists. Not because said games are poorly written or whatnot, but because they offend your personal sense of the issues?

People don't get physically assaulted or lose their friends or family for talking about playing pathological murderers and torturers. People do not get doxxed and harassed out of their communities and jobs for playing pathological murderers and torturers. They do not share the same real-life set of consequences. Thus, using playing those kinds of characters as an example is irrelevant.

Life's not fair. And we have to deal with the consequences of that unfairness. Complaining about it is about like me complaining about those who stare at my rear every day; it does nothing but make the complainer miserable.

You don't agree with the point of view of these games. Fair enough. No one is telling you that you have to play it. No one is forcing this on you in any way, shape or form. Don't play them. Why weave this into the fabric of your existence by railing against even the idea of having games with real world political issues built in?

Because I'm tired of fighting against examples like these "games" in trying to prove that feminism isn't a She-ra Man Hater's Club. Because whether or not I want this part of my existence, it's going to inevitably be forced to affect me again sometime in the future simply because these "authors" decided to make these "games." Because this is going to have consequences that will affect me personally. Because the only way I can escape the damage this will do to my cause is to abandon my cause.

Because, frankly, I'm tired of fighting a losing war to save feminism from the women on both sides of the line who seem intent on destroying it and seeing women's equality purely a thing of the past.

Because maybe, just maybe, I don't want to have this hobby be the thing that kills my hope women can be truly equal.

I don't have a choice if I have to respond to these. I already had to explain them away before I even posted on this topic to a few people who I game with. People who were beginning to see the light and consider that, maybe, feminism is actually a good thing. People who, now, have another piece of evidence to say that's wrong.

Me? I applaud the effort and I hope that this sells well enough that they do another one. And another one. And more after that. RPG's that deal with real world politics are a good idea, AFAIC, regardless of someone's personal politics.

I hope otherwise. Because there are better ways to handle this. Ways that do not damage what's left of the cause, do not prove the negativity about women game authors correct, and ways that actually do show feminism as a positive thing.

As it stands? Someone else noted the growing stereotype that women don't like TTRPGs. That they make anti-games. These games? They're just a new entry into the women's entertainment ghetto. Like so many other things that could have been good that focused on women, but ultimately ended up not.

Hussar · May 10, 2017

Might I suggest that perhaps it's more your own personal politics that is the issue here than this collection of games?

You bring up Call of Cthulhu as an example of politics in games. But, CoC isn't ABOUT race politics. It has advice on how to deal with it, sure, but, the game itself isn't about that. It's about going slowly insane in the face of unknowable badness.

We have games about being murder hoboes, we have games about being insane, we have games about being absolutely horrible people. And, also, games about being shining heroes as well. But, games about current issues? That's off the table? That's where we draw the line?

I don't think so. I LOVE these kinds of games, even if I don't get to play them that often. 3:19 Carnage Beyond the Stars is about the stupidity of war and those that favor armed conflict. Damnation Decade is deeply rooted in Reagan Era politics and whatnot. The whole Steampunk movement is an attempt to deconstruct Victorian values as a means to comment on our current modern views.

The idea that we should remove politics from role playing games is just very wrong headed in my view. We should embrace politics into the hobby. I would LOVE it if games were less about killing that next monster and more about being able to explore actual issues and ways of thinking.

ArchfiendBobbie · May 10, 2017

CoC isn't about going insane in the face of unknowable badness. That is a common mistake made by those who have inexperience with the game.

CoC is a game about going insane from understanding the universe. It's about how the progress of gaining knowledge and coming to understand reality isn't necessarily a good thing. And it drives home an important point, one that science is reminded of regularly: The universe doesn't care if we understand it or if it operates in a way that appears to be pure insanity to us. It's going to continue operating anyway.

The true horror in CoC isn't from dealing with things you can't understand. It's from dealing with things completely alien to what you know to be reality and understanding those things. That's why it is that certain pieces of knowledge can damage a character's sanity; they are coming to understand the universe, and in so doing coming to see things from a decidedly nonhuman viewpoint. The sanity slippage isn't because of the unknowable driving a person mad, but because the human mind is not designed to comprehend things outside of its preconceived notions about how reality works. Which is why some of the greater discoveries about how the universe works in real-life have been made while using certain chemicals to alter how the mind operates.

As for where we draw the line: ENWorld already drew it. I mean, I can discuss feminism in a lot more depth than I have, and even racism if you want... but ENWorld doesn't allow that. I'm just suggesting that a loophole is eliminated.

Your comment about murder hobos is still irrelevant, and for exactly the same reasons I pointed out last time.

I never said politics have no place in games. I said these games are dealing with the subject badly, and in a limited way that is harmful to the very subject they are trying to help.

I pointed out Pathfinder handles feminism politics very well, and the setting of Golarion is laced with feminist stances. Even the core rulebooks have feminist touches. Politics has a place, and a large place, but not as the primary focus of nanogames that are not even going to treat a subject with true breadth of exploration, rather than focusing on just a tiny segment of a particular subject and bringing everything from that particular viewpoint.

If you want games to explore feminism, fine. Go ahead. But make them about feminism and not third-wave intersect victimhood. That means the rest of the third-wave intersect, the rest of the third-wave movements, the fourth-wave movements, the second-wave movements, the second-wave-turned-antifeminist movements, the third-wave-turned-antifeminist movements... Basically, include more than 1% of the subject. Treat it as an actual subject, and not just whatever personal politics you have. And I ask the same for Black Lives Matter if that group is ever the subject of these kinds of games, as well as any other subject that relates to modern politics.

Treat the subject with actual respect. Not just use it as a tool.

But, then, I think this particular set shows us how likely that is to happen. And I would rather not see the bans that come when something like racism ends up the next one to get this treatment.

Flexor the Mighty! · May 10, 2017

If people want to make political games fine, but I pray that games I enjoy like D&D don't make a move to incorporate more of that. To me its escapism from BS like the endless politics that seems to have infused all aspects of life.

doctorbadwolf · May 10, 2017

"Explore feminism all you want, but not that modern feminism that I don't approve of, with it's support of trans people and recognition that women of color, queer women, and especially queer women of color experience sexism in ways that white cishet women don't"

Yeah, that is totally better than a game that focuses on one "type" of feminism. /s

Nope. These games explore modern feminist discussions and issues. Don't like it, don't buy it. You hating the thought of people talking about mansplaining doesn't change that it's a thing people are discussing as part of modern feminist discourse. Regardless of anyone's thoughts on whether it is "real" (it is), it is inarguably a real topic of modern debate and examination. That is worth exploring in a game format.

the idea that we shouldn't have that debate because people who already want to dismiss feminism will have more ammo with which to dismiss feminism is...just a really bad arguement, on every level. It's Joss Whedon saying we need to hangs he name and rebrand. Hell no.

And by the way, any discussion of racism or gender inequality, or homophobia, in the US, regardless of era, is political. Because those things haven't gone away. Equality is not here. It can't be a thing of the past because it never existed.

More importantly, these are the discussions people are having out there in real life. Maybe not in your circle of friends, but definitely all over the world, at all kinds of age groups, in most walks of life, these are the discussions, and they matter. It is absolutely worthwhile to keep having them, and to find new ways to explore them.

timbannock · May 10, 2017

ArchfiendBobbie said:
Because I'm tired of fighting against examples like these "games" in trying to prove that feminism isn't a She-ra Man Hater's Club. Because whether or not I want this part of my existence, it's going to inevitably be forced to affect me again sometime in the future simply because these "authors" decided to make these "games." Because this is going to have consequences that will affect me personally. Because the only way I can escape the damage this will do to my cause is to abandon my cause.

Because, frankly, I'm tired of fighting a losing war to save feminism from the women on both sides of the line who seem intent on destroying it and seeing women's equality purely a thing of the past.

Because maybe, just maybe, I don't want to have this hobby be the thing that kills my hope women can be truly equal.

I don't have a choice if I have to respond to these. I already had to explain them away before I even posted on this topic to a few people who I game with. People who were beginning to see the light and consider that, maybe, feminism is actually a good thing. People who, now, have another piece of evidence to say that's wrong.

Perhaps you are tired because you are not picking all of your battles wisely? Feminism like almost every ism and ist we know of, and especially every "charged" political category people sling about (liberal, progressive, conservative) are not, and never have been, just one thing, that fits in one mold, and that is or even should be interpreted in any one individual's narrow view of it.

Feminism has some militant man-hating people in it for a reason. It may not be a good reason, but it's there all the same. And arguably most feminists do not believe that is the be-all and end-all of feminism, including and maybe especially "modern feminism." You might be fighting against a definition that few if anyone in this thread -- or in this product -- are positing is the one true way, and in some cases specific to this product, the idea of presenting it as a way at all is specifically to speak to that facet and whether or not it is good or holds any value or the people who hold to it can be changed and influenced.

But, too, these are just games, explorations of games, and in several cases it appears, ruminations on games with little gameplay involved.

Warpiglet · May 10, 2017

Looks about as fun as a game on child labor laws. Either might be educational, but my group would have my head if I brought this to play in the few minutes of free time we have outside of work and family. If it has a market however, hats off to the publishers and shame on my lack of business acumen.

Ovinomancer · May 10, 2017

doctorbadwolf said:
"Explore feminism all you want, but not that modern feminism that I don't approve of, with it's support of trans people and recognition that women of color, queer women, and especially queer women of color experience sexism in ways that white cishet women don't"

Yeah, that is totally better than a game that focuses on one "type" of feminism. /s

Nope. These games explore modern feminist discussions and issues. Don't like it, don't buy it. You hating the thought of people talking about mansplaining doesn't change that it's a thing people are discussing as part of modern feminist discourse. Regardless of anyone's thoughts on whether it is "real" (it is), it is inarguably a real topic of modern debate and examination. That is worth exploring in a game format.

the idea that we shouldn't have that debate because people who already want to dismiss feminism will have more ammo with which to dismiss feminism is...just a really bad arguement, on every level. It's Joss Whedon saying we need to hangs he name and rebrand. Hell no.

And by the way, any discussion of racism or gender inequality, or homophobia, in the US, regardless of era, is political. Because those things haven't gone away. Equality is not here. It can't be a thing of the past because it never existed.

More importantly, these are the discussions people are having out there in real life. Maybe not in your circle of friends, but definitely all over the world, at all kinds of age groups, in most walks of life, these are the discussions, and they matter. It is absolutely worthwhile to keep having them, and to find new ways to explore them.

I don't think we should be discussing it here, on account of the rules of the forum. This is a political topic, the discussion around it is political. The bickering about who has the "correct" viewpoint about feminism and how everyone else is doing it wrong (an argument in common from both sides, with just the whos changed) is why this kind of thing is nominally verboten here.

I play RPGs to have fun, not to explore different political ideas or sociological constructs (like critical theory). You may have a different desire, but, honestly, I really doubt that anyone would be defending these games as good games if they had a topic they found politically unappealing. Which says that the current discussion is less about the game part and more about the topic part, which is politics. Hey, it even says on their tin that these games are politically driven, so this shouldn't be a shock.

Hat tip to 77, though, for valiantly having a discussion about the game part in spite of the politics.

#Feminism Is A Collection of 34 "Nanogames" From Designers Around The World

lowkey13

Guest

Hussar

Legend

ArchfiendBobbie

First Post

Hussar

Legend

ArchfiendBobbie

First Post

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

timbannock

Hero

Warpiglet

Adventurer

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!