Feminist adventures?

[Diamond Cross]

Actually America's culture is that of conformity. People just can't agree on what to conform to.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I agree. It's just that you do have to question how he felt about women overall given his love of BDSM. Was it one of those "do as I say, not as I do" things? (Esp. In the light that the more extreme bondage poses in the Wonder Woman art were almost entirely directed at her.) Was it a pure fetish?

At best, we can say his position was highly nuanced...not unlike those Founding Fathers who wrote passionately about equality for all men...but owned slaves.

So feminists can't like BDSM?

Sure they can. But most (not all) of the ones I know who do appreciate it more when the male is the one placed in bondage. And a lot of them have problems specifically with male created BDSM imagery that focuses on the women being in bondage.

First, the fact that you refer to it "that stuff" suggests to me you may not have a lot of deep personal experience with people who are into "that stuff" and it may be inadvisable to jump to conclusions about what BDSM means to the participants.

You'd be mistaken. I was simply using "that stuff" in place of "BDSM" in the same way I'd speak about any hobby, interest, cuisine, etc. Like when I say "I love Indian food, but I don't have many friends who are into that stuff."

Since that time, Wonder Woman remains a popular and inspiring hero. One of my old friends, a staunch, self-described feminist, was definitely an admirer.

Agreed. I've always considered her post-50's stuff to be pretty cool in my book. Not 100% good, mind you- Sturgeon's Law still applies- but she's always been a fave.

 

[pawsplay]

I agree. It's just that you do have to question how he felt about women overall given his love of BDSM. Was it one of those "do as I say, not as I do" things? (Esp. In the light that the more extreme bondage poses in the Wonder Woman art were almost entirely directed at her.) Was it a pure fetish?

Let's re-examine the starting point that we're talking about a genre in which buff, godlike people in skintight costumes running around trying to capture each, expand their dominion over others, or rescue people. I think you have a difficult position to argue that Wonder Woman is even especially fetishistic relative to her genre. Certainly compared to the Domino Lady, the Phantom Lady, Black Canary...

At best, we can say his position was highly nuanced...not unlike those Founding Fathers who wrote passionately about equality for all men...but owned slaves.

I don't know if you're looking for an argument or not, but I find that an inaccurate and probably objectionable analogy. You seem to be suggesting there is an inherent incongruence between female bondage acts and female political equality, but I have known too many feminists to accept that without persuasion. It seems entirely possible that he was an equal opportunity bondage enthusiast; after all, it's Wonder Woman who has the lasso!

Sure they can. But most (not all) of the ones I know who do appreciate it more when the male is the one placed in bondage. And a lot of them have problems specifically with male created BDSM imagery that focuses on the women being in bondage.

Some feminist somewhere objecting to specific images associated with Wonder Woman does not strike me as a strong argument against the character as a whole being a feministic protagonist. I think (without having performed a lot of marketing research, of course) feminists in general would consider Wonder Woman in general to be a pro-woman character.

You'd be mistaken. I was simply using "that stuff" in place of "BDSM" in the same way I'd speak about any hobby, interest, cuisine, etc. Like when I say "I love Indian food, but I don't have many friends who are into that stuff."

So... you love Indian food?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Let's re-examine the starting point that we're talking about a genre in which buff, godlike people in skintight costumes running around trying to capture each, expand their dominion over others, or rescue people. I think you have a difficult position to argue that Wonder Woman is even especially fetishistic relative to her genre. Certainly compared to the Domino Lady, the Phantom Lady, Black Canary...

No, the case has been made very effectively by scholarly works on erotica: many of the early images of Wonder Woman in bondage are straight out of the BDSM porn collection of her creator. And despite being Supes's equal in nearly every way, she ends up in bondage a lot.

No other heroine can really be pointed at that duplicates so many adult-oriented images AND manages to be helpless sooooo often despite her enormous advantages.

I don't know if you're looking for an argument or not, but I find that an inaccurate and probably objectionable analogy. <snip>

I can't say whether or not he was an equal opportunity BDSM enthusiast or not, but I can say that the message of whether early WW is a truly empowered woman or one who is nominally empowered but ultimately shackled in some way is murky at best...a perspective I share with feminists of my acquaintance.

I mean, as you rightly point out and I agree, BDSM is not perforce exclusionary of attracting feminists. However, from the writings and protests Ive seen, I suspect that such a following is minimal at most- especially when it is the woman in bondage, and the creator of the imagery is male.

Context matters. Springtime for Hitler as a joke musical in the context of Mel Brooks' The Producers is one thing, Springtime for Hitler as a real musical put on by 4th Reich Productions, Inc. feels different right away, even if the same lyrics are used.

...feminists in general would consider Wonder Woman in general to be a pro-woman character.

Post Marston's relinquishing control to other, less BDSMphillic writers, I don't think there's any issue: WW is a feminist icon. Before then, it's unclear.

 

[nedjer]

Brings me back to Daisy Duke. Which feminist icon has had an actual impact and could, maybe, be described as empowered?

Male mimicking, gender-flattening Wonder Woman and her amazing over-sized pants or delectable Daisy?

Wonder Woman went nowhere: barely figures in the modern comic world, ridiculed for absurd costumery and epically rescue mission dull.

Daisy's image is, much more, the 'win' female archetype of Beyonce, Rihanna, Alice, Lady Deathstrike and X23.

Can't begin to think how WW could be made remotely cool and playable; while X23 eclipses, or should that be emasculates, Bourne and Wolverine within a few comic book frames of each appearance.

 

[pawsplay]

Wonder Woman is considered one of the "big three," the other two being Batman and Superman. She is a mainstay of recent incarnations of the JLA, figures prominently in the Dark Knight Strikes Again, had her own TV series, and obviously influenced Xena in style and abilities.

Daisy Duke... had the fashion of wearing very short shorts named after her.

 

[Umbran]

I can't say whether or not he was an equal opportunity BDSM enthusiast or not, but I can say that the message of whether early WW is a truly empowered woman or one who is nominally empowered but ultimately shackled in some way is murky at best...a perspective I share with feminists of my acquaintance.

As you say, context matters. Whether early WW was "truly empowered" in the modern sense does not directly speak to whether she was seen as an icon of empowerment at the time. I'm not sure it is constructive to look at her empowerment with a modern sensibility to judge the effect of the character several decades ago.

There's a difference between asking if we, today, would look back at that character and say she's empowered, and if someone at the time would have called her empowered (though, I expect "liberated" would probably have been the lingo of the day).

Should we have expected them to come up with what the 21st century would now call an empowered woman all in one step? Probably not. Today, those first steps don't look like much, but that doesn't mean they weren't groundbreaking at the time they were made.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There's a difference between asking if we, today, would look back at that character and say she's empowered, and if someone at the time would have called her empowered (though, I expect "liberated" would probably have been the lingo of the day).

There's also a difference between how- even back in the day- one would feel taking early WW at face value- as a super-strong, crime-fighting woman- and then having it revealed that her "imperiled" covers and splash pages were lifted directly from a form of pornography that was REALLY considered beyond the pale of the sexual mores of the day.

I mean, while we have no problem with BDSM tinged characters & plotlines in our tv shows today, back then, BDSM paraphernalia could get you arrested.

I utterly agree that she was a groundbreaking character- both for feminist ideals AND for mainstreaming BDSM themes in entertainment- but remember, this whole tangent was inspired by:

Wonder Woman is a feminist superhero, conceived as such.

(emphasis mine)
IMHO, that closing clause overstates the case. That she has become such is irrefutable; that she was "conceived as such" is unclear because the message is mixed at best.

 

[nedjer]

Wonder Woman is considered one of the "big three," the other two being Batman and Superman. She is a mainstay of recent incarnations of the JLA, figures prominently in the Dark Knight Strikes Again, had her own TV series, and obviously influenced Xena in style and abilities.

Daisy Duke... had the fashion of wearing very short shorts named after her.

WW's never been very Sarah Connor and any credibility she may have had went down the tubes the day the cranes arrived to weld Lynda Carter's hair into place.

Daisy on the other hand didn't take any nonsense, exploited men dumb enough to be too busy drooling over her ass, and was invariably brighter than both the heroes and the 'bad guys' that she frequently outwitted. Which leads me to believe that Daisy was way more radical than WW.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Which leads me to believe that Daisy was way more radical than WW

Without WW, you might not have DD.

WW was not only stronger than most men, she was stronger than most superhumans. She was smart- well, when she didn't get caught & bound- and wore a sexier costume than virtually all of her contemporaries.

And she did all of that before the sexual revolution of the 1960s.