Feminist adventures?

[pawsplay]

IMHO, that closing clause overstates the case. That she has become such is irrefutable; that she was "conceived as such" is unclear because the message is mixed at best.

Marston, speaking to Olive Byrne, the co-inspiration, in an interview:

""Women now fly heavy planes successfully, they help build planes, do mechanics' work. In England they've taken over a large share of all manual labor in fields and factories; they've taken over police and home defense duties. In China a corps of 200,000 women under the supreme command of Madame Chiang Kai-shek perform the dangerous function of saving lives and repairing damage after Japanese air raids. This huge female strong- arm squad is officered efficiently by 3,000 women. Here in this country we've started a Women's Auxiliary Army and Navy Corps that will do everything men soldiers and sailors do except the actual fighting. Prior to the first World War nobody believed that women could perform these feats of physical strength. But they're performing them now and thinking nothing of it. In this far worse: war, women will develop still greater female power; by the end of the war that traditional description 'the weaker sex' will be a joke-it will cease to have any meaning."

If, as may be the case, Marston used psychological projection to deal with his suppressed desire to subjugate women, that says more about his personality and his kinks than it does about his politics. Whatever virtues we have as human beings that are great and powerful, it is likely that they grow large in order to thwart kernels of unwanted id in our minds.

Daisy on the other hand didn't take any nonsense, exploited men dumb enough to be too busy drooling over her ass, and was invariably brighter than both the heroes and the 'bad guys' that she frequently outwitted. Which leads me to believe that Daisy was way more radical than WW.

Daisy appears mainly as an amalgam of traditional, stereotypical images of women, sexy and cunning, played as a country tomboy for laughs. She relied on vamping and deceit, making her little more than a modern-day Eve or Delilah in jean shorts. I wouldn't put her in the same category as Olive Oil, but in my mind she's a lot closer to the pink T-shirt version of "girl power" that is popular nowadays than liberated womanhood.

 

[Umbran]

IMHO, that closing clause overstates the case. That she has become such is irrefutable; that she was "conceived as such" is unclear because the message is mixed at best.

I think you may be making perfect the enemy of good there.

The argument that, at the time, mixing the message was necessary to have anyone accept the character is a strong one. If you put out what today would be "empowered", the character would have been too extreme for the day. If you mix the message, make WW imperfect and occasionally vulnerable, and it's much easier to accept.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Marston, speaking to Olive Byrne, the co-inspiration, in an interview:

Again, at best, that gets us to a "do as I say, not as I do"' situation like with the Founding Fathers.

He may have espoused feminist ideals, but he may not have fully adopted them in his heart. And that's something we can't know for sure.

Again, as I said before, I agree that it is possible for feminists to enjoy BDSM. However, it's acceptance is far from universal in that movement. Do a quick search for "feminists", "bondage", and "critique," and you'll find treatises both in strongly in favor of it and strongly decrying it (and other stuff besides).

If the feminists themselves have a mixed view of BDSM, a character based in the form is going to get a mixed reception as well.

I think you may be making perfect the enemy of good there.

Lincoln did a lot for my people, but make no mistake, he didn't exactly do what he did out of love for blacks. His position on slavery was a lot more nuanced than that. Even so, we accept the good he did for us, but don't forget the rest of the picture.

Marston may be the same. Just because he created a feminist icon doesn't mean he intended her to be such from the moment if creation. We don't know the fullness of his intentions, and to assert that WW was created to be a paragon of feminism is simplistic in the light of what we do know.

 

[nedjer]

Without WW, you might not have DD.

WW was not only stronger than most men, she was stronger than most superhumans. She was smart- well, when she didn't get caught & bound- and wore a sexier costume than virtually all of her contemporaries.

And she did all of that before the sexual revolution of the 1960s.

Radical feminism was a lot more radical a long time before WW or the 1960s came along. To the WSPU WW would have been considered a male manipulation offered up to appease and frustrate genuine liberation.

The ability to get laid more often with fewer consequences in the 1960s maybe had more to do with the pill than WW?

 

[nedjer]

Daisy appears mainly as an amalgam of traditional, stereotypical images of women, sexy and cunning, played as a country tomboy for laughs. She relied on vamping and deceit, making her little more than a modern-day Eve or Delilah in jean shorts. I wouldn't put her in the same category as Olive Oil, but in my mind she's a lot closer to the pink T-shirt version of "girl power" that is popular nowadays than liberated womanhood.

Exactly, compared to WW's contrived 'feminism' DD, for her time and place, had girl power. That's not to say that she was 'liberated', but it was a heck of an improvement on both the 'oops! there I go getting carelessly tied-up again', feckless WW and a bog standard femme fatale.

 

[pawsplay]

Again, at best, that gets us to a "do as I say, not as I do"' situation like with the Founding Fathers.

He may have espoused feminist ideals, but he may not have fully adopted them in his heart. And that's something we can't know for sure.

That's something that just seems really irrelevant to this discussion. We are discussing Wonder Woman, not his heart.

Again, as I said before, I agree that it is possible for feminists to enjoy BDSM. However, it's acceptance is far from universal in that movement. Do a quick search for "feminists", "bondage", and "critique," and you'll find treatises both in strongly in favor of it and strongly decrying it (and other stuff besides).

It's controversial. Therefore, by definition, the question is not settled in feminism and does not constitute any sort of disqualification as to being "feminist" categorically. Whether Wonder Woman is actually a positive, useful pro-woman image is of contextual interest. Her efficacy is only somewhat related to the intentions which birthed her.

What you're saying is like arguing Nancy Regan's "Just Say No" campaign was not anti-drug because it didn't actually address the roots of drug abuse and was ineffective.

In fact, if your argument is that the BDSM imagery weakened Wonder Woman's ability to empower women, your argument seems to fail on practical grounds. Regardless of your opinion of the imagery, Wonder Woman and that imagery ultimately resulted in the character we have today. If you believe the images made Wonder Woman non-feminist because it hampered her ability to convey a clear, positive feminist message, show me how, in the long haul, a clear, positive feminist message has failed to be conveyed.

 

[pawsplay]

Exactly, compared to WW's contrived 'feminism' DD, for her time and place, had girl power. That's not to say that she was 'liberated', but it was a heck of an improvement on both the 'oops! there I go getting carelessly tied-up again', feckless WW and a bog standard femme fatale.

Look, if you're going to go calling Wonder Woman feckless, I don't see this conversation going anywhere.

 

[nedjer]

Look, if you're going to go calling Wonder Woman feckless, I don't see this conversation going anywhere.

OK, each to their own, WW doesn't cut it for me as a female icon - which is a view overwhelmingly coloured by the TV series. I'd certainly agree Daisy ain't exactly ideal either.

Question is, who/ what is a really good role model for say a teenage girl making a PC, or one a male playing alongside her will 'respect'. If WW, Daisy and Xena - plus their real life 'versions' ain't that good, where we gonna go?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That's something that just seems really irrelevant to this discussion

What was in his heart is entirely relevant, given that you claim she was "conceived as" a feminist icon.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Radical feminism was a lot more radical a long time before WW or the 1960s came along. To the WSPU WW would have been considered a male manipulation offered up to appease and frustrate genuine liberation.

The ability to get laid more often with fewer consequences in the 1960s maybe had more to do with the pill than WW?

While it's true the early radical feminists were women of action, their efforts didn't really impact mainstream iconography and fiction...not like WW did.

However, I do wish to take note of your comment about their probable view of WW, which reinforces my point about how early WW iconography and storylines may not have been as in tune with feminist ideology of the time, especially taking into account it's link to BDSM.