Fewer conditions?

[Mengu]

I don't bother with ongoing damage on Standard monsters. I just have them immediately take the damage, and have it expire. This is probably generous to the PC's, but it so rarely makes a difference. Standard monster that becomes enough of a priority to put ongoing damage on it, is not likely to get any more than 1 more action before it dies. I do track it on Elites and Solos.

I don't mind that PC's have to track conditions, but as DM, controlling a lot more creatures, I don't want to track every silly penalty and condition. I'm not really sure what to get rid of. I already house ruled stunned to be dazed and -5 attack. I could probably do away with Slowed and Weakened, but PC's pick those powers up very rarely, so it's probably not worth a house rule there.

It's I think the "non condition conditions" that are the major pain. If monster A gets closer to the starlock, it will take damage, it has -2 penalty to attack, the Avenger is invisible to it, and the rogue will slap it with riposte if it attacks the rogue. I'm not very good at remembering all that, after 3 turns by 3 other players that inflict conditions on other monsters, and 3-4 monster activations. I might remember the -2 penalty and the rogue's riposte, and avenger being invisible, so I shift out of the flank, remaining adjacent to the avenger so he doesn't get pursuit bonus, to use my reach to attack the rogue avoiding the riposte attack, only to be reminded by the starlock that I just shifted closer to her, and take some damage anyway.

There is a lot going on on the battle field. I'm used to playing wargames, so it's not exactly daunting, but I wish powers had more "instant" effects or "predefined" effects, and fewer "will come into play some time when you least expect it" effects and "I don't have a name, just remember me" effects.

 

[Herschel]

The conditions are fine, but the over use of them is the issue. They can feel/be unbalancing. For instance, in a game I play it sure feels like my barbarian spends a whole lot of time immobilized or restrained while the Archer rarely gets blinded or kept from creating a pin cushion. Whether or not the amount of time my character spends unable to do anything is actually unreasonable, when compared to the archer it can sure feel like the archer gets off easy.

 

[Shazman]

Right?


I, for one, like all of the conditions. And special bonuses and penalties. And I like daze and stun and weaken, too.

I don't find any of it to be a problem at the table, neither as a player nor as a DM.

Then again, I hear all sorts of tales of players who have to use calculators to add up their 2d6+11 damage, and that's not the kind of guys I play with. So I can imagine that the bookkeeping is more onerous for certain groups.

I have played with these types of people. One tries to up all his bonuses to hit off the top of his head, out loud almost every time he attacks, even though the bonus is written on his character sheet in front of him (in his defense, he doesn't see very well, so maybe he can't see the small print on the power cards). Nothing slows down a game like this. Unfortunately, you can't really kick somone out of a group or refuse to play with them because they are "math challenged". Well, I guess you could, but you would be acting like a pretty nasty jerk. It's just one of those things some of us have to deal with when gaming.

 

[KarinsDad]

The conditions are fine, but the over use of them is the issue.

This.

We have 6 PCs and in a standard encounter with 6 PCs and 6 NPCs, there are usually 15 to 30 different buffs, debuffs, conditions, and bloodied that we are tracking on the 12 creatures at level 16 most rounds. Nearly every single creature has at least one and often two or three things that are being tracked. The vast majority of these do not come from the monsters, instead come from the PCs.

In fact, I took notice of this yesterday in our 4 encounters due to the recent conditions discussions here on the board, and every single non-minion monster that got killed had 3 to 5 plastic tokens on them when I removed them from the board. Every single one.

Typically, 2 of these 3 to 5 are marked and bloodied. But, there are also typically others as well.


There are several issues here:

1) Not every other power should throw out a condition, a buff, or a debuff. There are two many powers that do this. When over half of the At Will and Encounter powers do a condition, a buff, or a debuff, this level of bookkeeping will need to be done on over half of NPCs most rounds. This does not even include attacks by monsters where conditions, buffs, and debuffs have to be tracked on PCs.

2) There are too many powers that last for a single round and two few powers that last for the entire encounter. It is much easier to track conditions that last for an entire encounter than it is ones that last for a portion of one or a few rounds, especially since powers can last until save ends, start of target's next turn, end of target's next turn, start of user's next turn, or end of user's next turn. For my money, effects should end in one of three states: end of encounter, end of user's next turn, save ends. There should only be 3 possibilities, not 6.

It's easier to track something if the player of the PC or NPC who used it is the one tracking it. End of "user's" next turn every single time for certain types of effects is preferable to multiple possibilities.

3) It would be better if buffs and debuffs fell into three categories: Minor +1/-1 lasts until the end of the encounter, Moderate +2/-2 save ends, and Major +3/-3 end of user's next turn. The game would be much simpler if there were not so many different values for buffs and debuffs, rather there were just a few.

If each of the 3 types had keywords like Minor Power Bonus to hit, everyone would know that it was +1 and that it lasted until the end of the encounter because of the keyword.

4) Certain conditions like Weakened could be dropped. A monster that weakens a PC could do a debuff instead. For example, a "Minor Weaken" could be a -1 to all D20 rolls until the end of the encounter.


Organizing and simplifying the entire status system from a design perspective could make it much easier for everyone.

 

[Markn]

Magic items suffer from a psuedo condition issue as well. I have 3 players in my group that have the War Ring (IIRC). Basically, on a successful save, another ring wearer within a certain distance can make a save as well. This property can happen only once a round. We constantly have to to remember or write down on whose turn the property triggered. The more players with the item the worse it gets.

For our group this has been a huge pain in the ass. We could always get rid of the rings I guess, but if thats the answer, then its a poor design.

Refelecting on the 4e designers goal to reduce book keeping for multi round effects, it sure seems they didn't hit that goal, or rather they did but then they went CRAZY NUTS on single round conditions. In fact, it seems spiralled out of control now and I'd say the bookkeeping/management of all the conditions is now the worst for all the editions.

 

[BobTheNob]

I'm of the opinion that you have to have the bad to appreciate the good. If dazed is the worst I get and I'm always guaranteed a standard action on my turn and I only miss 20% of the time then the game turns even more into a hit point grindfest and a lot of the uncertainty and swings of battle gets lost. You have to suffer through the stuns and weakens and tough monster defenses to appreciate how kick ass it is when you are the only one NOT suffering the condition and the party is depending on you to kick butt while they are helpless and you come through. Anyhow I'll remember the fight for a long time... though doubtless one or two of the other players will remember the fight as "crap that annoying fight, I hate stuns".

Couldnt agree more. You really have to pump em where it hurts (sometimes) to help them fully appreciate what there character represents. We had a similar situation in so far as it was the warlord to the rescue. After that, players starting speccing out of the "Pure DPR" mindset and started investing in recuperative and counteracting powers. For instance our fighter trained in a power that allowed him to ignore Stunned , Weakened and something else (cant remember its name).

Our party is becoming far more balanced over time as the players get this principle, and not such "Mine can do more damage than yours" mindset. We are no longer 6 DPS'ers, we are a party, and it took a tough situation to make it so.

Some conditions are harsh (Stunned ,Weakened) but players need to understand how to counteract this as much as anything else. Imagine a boxer who could punch hard but had a glass jaw? He wouldnt last long.

Overall, I like the effects and dont really see any need to nerf them whatsoever. I prefer the thought that players need to know how to adapt.

 

[Tuft]

When over half of the At Will and Encounter powers do a condition, a buff, or a debuff, this level of bookkeeping will need to be done on over half of NPCs most rounds.

Oh, it does not stop at one condition.

Take the bard at-will Vicious Mockery, which lowers the target's to-hit.

It has both the keywords psychic and charm. That means that it is a prime candidate for both the Psychic Lock and the Beguiling Enchantment feats.

That means that it will have the following effects on a hit:

• "target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn."
• "Any target you hit [...] takes a –2 penalty to its next attack roll."
• "[...]that enemy takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls against you until the end of its next turn."

Three stacking to-hit penalties that also nicely stack with the to-hit penalty of the defender's mark. A real powerful combo (especially when combined with a mark), but with different end conditions on all three penalties.

Now you can note that Irresistible Dance is an area attack that has both psychic and charm, which makes both those feats applicable also to that attack. Since (A) an opportunity attack discharges the Psychic Lock penalty, and (B) it may not be discharged in a monster's round if it is unable to attack, each monster hit by the Irresistible Dance must have its Psychic Lock penalty tracked individually.

In fact, there are a good supply of Psychic/Charm powers in the Bard class, making those two feats a bargain. Satire of Prowess, for example, which has yet another way of messing up the target's to-hit.

And, if we go back to the Vicious Mockery, it's stacking conditions do not need to stop at only three. Since it is an Arcane At-Will, the entire family of White Lotus feats can be applied to it: White Lotus Defense, White Lotus Enervation, White Lotus Evasion, etc. That's eight other riders you can put on the same power. Some last until the beginning of your next turn, some the end of your next, some are only in effect during the same turn... All in all, eleven effects from the same at-will, if you are willing to pay the feats - and willing to handle the bookkeeping.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

For me, it's mostly all the little +2 here and -3 there that seem to add up to a pain in the neck. Why?

If I have a status condition on my character, a) I was probably paying attention when it occurred, and b) it's important enough for me to track.

If I am granted a +2 bonus to attack the orc in the corner, a) I may not have been paying attention when it happened, b) I may not have been planning to attack that orc, so it's not a top priority for me to remember it, c) I may have a hard time remembering which orc it was, especially if that orc moves while the bonus still applies, d) was it +2 or +3, until end of the orc's turn or my turn or the grantors turn, for all attacks or only for OAs or for attacks with CA or for ranged attacks or, for me specifically or for whichever character attacked it first...

Blah. Nice concept in theory, but the only way to consistently act upon such bonuses (or penalties) correctly would be to use a tracking system that goes beyond what a lot of groups consider worth the effort.

Note: This means that some groups will use such a tracking system, that some groups contain only such paragons of memory that they need no system, and that sometimes groups that otherwise handle these bonuses correctly have someone screw up and apply a bonus incorrectly without anyone ever realizing it.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Stunned and Weakened are too severe. Effects that would stun instead daze. Effects that would daze instead just make a creature grant combat advantage.

I think that nerfs Stunned too much. What if you changed Stunned to "you may only take a move action"? That way you don't completely lose your turn, but it's definitely a nasty condition.

 

[Markn]

That's not a bad option either Presti.