FFG Legendary Class contest submissions

[Ruavel]

Maitre d'Escrime quests...

anyone care to read this additional quest and tell me what they think...?

To truly be considered a master of fencing, the prospective maitre must bring something more to the art than just her experience with the rapier and time must be spent furthering swordplay above all other things. In her desire to improve her swordsmanship and that of others, the upcoming maitre must spend a significant period of time away from her homeland studying the fighting styles of another race or culture. The subject of her studies can be located no closer than 500 miles from the maitre’s base of operations, although some of the greatest maitre have gone so far as to spend their time studying the combat techniques of races like the githyanki and githzerai on other planes.

For the study to be valid, the subject of the maitre’s study must have obvious differences from the normal fighting styles of her own culture and race. For example after spending several weeks aiding an elven community far from her home, Trinnen val Kemeer spent another four months with group of young elves who were training to become Bladesingers. The elves would not teach Trinnen any part of the Bladesong but she was permitted to watch the student practice, make notes on what she saw and occasionally spar with the pupils.

The study of such exotic combat methods should ultimately produce a comprehensive analysis of the weapons, tactics, protective equipment, and some of the more impressive manoeuvres used by the people or school studied, their comparative strengths and weaknesses, and a discussion on the possible adaptation of any appropriate skills or equipment into the school of fencing.

I know this doesn't reflect correct layout, but that will be altered for the draft...

any and all feedback is appreciated... although be gentle, I'm fragile...


thanx...

 

[RedCliff]

additional quest

I think the concept you put forth is a good one, but I'm a tad leary about giving a legendary character a quest that stops short of the risk of failure. The quest, as it's presented, basically involves auditing other fighting classes for a little while.

The idea of finding masters of other styles is a good one though, and certainly worth keeping. Why not add the caveat that the would-be legend has to not only study the other styles, but take what he learns and prove himself better by besting the master of the alternate school? He would have to best a certain number of other accomplished fighters before his quest would be complete.

Essentially, the quest would work much as it does now, simply with a conflict (though not necessarily an unfriendly one) at the end of it.

Like I said, it puts the possibility of failure into the quest, which I think is an important element. I realize that the quest, as it stands, requires an extensive analysis of the alternate fighting styles, but I wonder how many people playing D&D have the knowledge of swordplay required to perform such a task. If not, it'll have to come down to something like an Intelligence check.

 

[Khur]

Nice redos!

Redcliff, I need your real name (if I should already have it, sorry). Nice work on the edits. You left me a little work to do, but that's okay.

Storm's basic requirements:
-I took out the BAB +12 and replaced it with a +4 Base Reflex save. The combination of this plus feat requirements means there shouldn't be a character qualifying for this class early. With a BAB of +12, monks wouldn't be able to take 5 levels of this class; they don't get +12 until level 16.

I understand and your class is polishing up nicely. There's a problem, however. A monk at 1st-level has a base reflex save of +2. If that monk immediately switches to fighter at 2nd, he gets a feat and +0 base reflex. That's two feats. He gets two more feats at 3rd-level (one for fighter, one for 3rd-level). That's four feats. At 4th-level, his Reflex saves rises to +3. At 5th-level, he gains another feat and two more at 6th; that's 7 feats. At 6th-level he's got a base reflex save of +4 also. By 7th, assuming an Int bonus of +1 (minimum for Whirlwind Attack), the character has Jump: 9 ranks, Intimidate (cross-class) 5 ranks, and Wilderness Lore (cross-class): 5 ranks. At 8th, he qualifies for the storm legendary class. This problem is compounded if the PC in question takes rogue levels or is human ... he'll qualify earlier.

However, if you make the BAB requirement +11 and the Base Reflex Save requirement +4, you allow for multiclass monks, fighters, rangers, paladins, and barbarians, but nobody gets the class until 12th-level, no matter what the multiclass. Envision the monk that forsakes his lawful calling for his moods of rage and finally embraces the storm (Mnk3/Bar9/Storm1). See the ranger that feels the electric vibration of lightning in his bones (Rgr12). A paladin (with a checkered past) of the thunder god leaves behind the path of staunch virtue, and rides the tempest of righteous rage instead (Rog7/Pal6/Storm 1). A monk can get the class at 15th, so he maxes at 20th. The coolest thing about this scheme is a Sor8/Ftr7 can qualify for the class. (I'd sorely like to make this character up for the publication, if you'll allow me.) Check me, you'll find this works.

-Of the required feats I took out Improved Unarmed Strike. Whirlwind Attack alone accounts for 5 feats (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Expertise, Whirlwind Attack). And Lightning Reflexes is already a requirement as well. Add another feat to that and no one but fighters will ever qualify for this class. That, and I envisioned this as a versatile class in terms of flavor. It doesn't have to be a martial artist (the iconic character I included isn't).

Multiclass fighter types would be the only one's to qualify for the class, yes, or monks, who get Improved Unarmed Strike anyway as a class feature. I included Improved Unarmed Strike because it seemed to make sense with the storm's powers. It's okay not to include it if you feel it's too much though. Remember that these classes don't need to be constructed to allow for all possibilities. Someone interested in a pure spellcaster isn't going to take this LgC, even though it's great. The flexibility offered by the class you've created is very nice though, probably the best I've seen so far – especially if we include the BAB requirement.

Warrior of the Broken Wake:
-I dropped the Strength requirement to 18, since 20 is a bit hard to hit by level 12. However, the starting concept of this class was powerful blows. Image and game mechanics both point to a strong character. Thus, the strength requirement.

Nice reasoning on the ability and on lowering it. You can safely assume that a fighter character has 15-16 Strength at level one.

-I reworked Hooking Blow, changing the name and the descriptive text (though mechanically it remains unchanged). I'm not sure how this one is going to go over, as I believe our tastes are just going to differ on this one.

Holding Blow is a better power, full-stop. I think this version works for me, so I don't think we'll disagree. My only problem at first look is the "no reversal" clause. I may edit it a bit to show the implications of using a weapon to pin an opponent (or you can).

-I looked over the DMG section on damage as noted, but didn't see anything applicable to Sever Life but a variant rule on massive damage, and that didn't provide any insight. I'm not sure what you wanted me to do with that one.

This wasn't a comment to you, merely an addition to the power for the DM reading it to refer to the variant. Many persons don't use that variant in their games and won't know off-hand what you're referring to in the ability. On that note, the Death by Massive Damage variant is real garbage as far as game design goes. While the 3E team did a great job satisfying the idea that someone might want something like this, they made the rule too simple (probably for space considerations). Maybe you and I could work up a new variant for Death by Massive Damage or make the power more like a deathblow from an assassin (save, or die).

Good work!

 

[Khur]

New maitre quest

Rauvel, you're on the right track.

This is a good idea, but one that only makes sense if Knowledge (tactics) or some such thing is required by the LgC. (Many "official" prestige classes overlook this very thing.) Perhaps the quest should include traveling the world and besting a few opponents (proving that the art of fencing is superior, of course), in addition to studying their styles. Losing such a bout is dangerous to the aspirant's confidence. Perhaps the character must produce a treatise on the subject (requiring Knowledge checks, with the potential for failure). BTW, we can't mention githyanki or githzerai, nor can we mention bladesingers (Tome and Blood) as far as I know. If someone knows I'm wrong, let me know.

 

[RedCliff]

Re: Nice redos!

Redcliff, I need your real name (if I should already have it, sorry).

Clifford Horowitz

However, if you make the BAB requirement +11 and the Base Reflex Save requirement +4, you allow for multiclass monks, fighters, rangers, paladins, and barbarians, but nobody gets the class until 12th-level, no matter what the multiclass.

Works for me. I'll make the appropriate changes tonght.

The coolest thing about this scheme is a Sor8/Ftr7 can qualify for the class. (I'd sorely like to make this character up for the publication, if you'll allow me.)

Sorely huh? Well, we can't have that. Go right ahead and make that character up then.

Holding Blow is a better power, full-stop. I think this version works for me, so I don't think we'll disagree. My only problem at first look is the "no reversal" clause. I may edit it a bit to show the implications of using a weapon to pin an opponent (or you can).

What if a reversal resulted in a disarm instead of a counter-grapple?

On that note, the Death by Massive Damage variant is real garbage as far as game design goes. While the 3E team did a great job satisfying the idea that someone might want something like this, they made the rule too simple (probably for space considerations). Maybe you and I could work up a new variant for Death by Massive Damage or make the power more like a deathblow from an assassin (save, or die).

I honestly didn't know I hit a variant; my original intention was simply to make it slightly more likely that this class kill something outright. More with that powerful blows thing. Originally this power lowered the threshold of the massive damage from 50 by a certain incriment per power level, but most agreed that would lead to cumbersome combats and too many times an opponent was faced with death from massive damage. I agreed. So the intent now is to make the saves harder to make when the warrior does do 50 points of damage in a hit.

But I'm up for changing things. Do you have anything in mind?

 

[Shadeus]

Comments on Forgemaster edit...

Requirements:

Con: 17+ (18 is too high, and odd #s work best), consider an Int requirement (for Crafting).

Why do odd numbers work best? A 17 is fine though. No Int requirement. That's why you have skill ranks. Dwarven heroes don't need to be scholars, they just need to be good with an axe and able to make their own axe.

Special: Those seeking the title of forgemaster are already heroes in their own right. The character must have helped to save the dwarven way of life. For example, he must have been a notable help in saving a village from an orc invasion, or stopped a plot to overthrow the dwarven king. Any notable deeds deemed worthy by the GM will do.

I originally had this as a requirement but moved it to a quest when someone on the boards suggested it.

Quests:

Editor's note: Perhaps the forgemaster should have some mystic union with the dwarven god of Craft or the dwarven creator.

I thought about some kind of mystical experience, but a forgemaster already has basically 3 quests. I think that's enough. More would be overkill.

Dwarven Forgemaster Abilities:

Flesh of Stone (Ex): *snip*

(Reason for change: DR sounds like flesh of stone, while bonus hp sounds like shrug off pain.)

Good call on the name change.

Mystic Forge Hammer (Su): *snip*

Reasons for change: Magic vestment and magic weapon are not requirements for magic arms construction. It's too much trouble to make separate abilities for arms and armor, when the PHB doesn't. Adding the power level to the effective caster level allows a 20th-level forgemaster with this ability at level 5 to craft +5 weapons (enhancement bonus is limited to +1 per three caster levels).

Wow, good idea. I wish I had thought of it.

One with the Earth (Sp): Having a mystic tie to the knowledge of stoneworking, a forgemaster is able to call upon 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells of the Earth domain. (The granted power of that domain is not gained, however.) He may use each spell once per day per power level and his effective caster level is his dwarven forgemaster class level.

Reason for change: Stone shape isn't powerful enough, so nobody would select this ability. The edited ability gives the forgemaster an array of spell ability at a minor level of power.

I disagree. Stone shape can be very powerful. It had a two-fold purporse as well. Stone shape can be used to create works of art and it can also have a utility use of making a hole in a wall where there wasn't one. A druid in our party used it to get by a trapped door. He made his own door.

I would rather this remain the way it was: stone shape 1/day/power level.

Tireless Champion (Ex): *snip*

Reason for change: Not suffering fatigue at all is too much. Characters don't automatically lose hp when disabled, only when dying. The ability as edited is more closely tied to power level. I must compliment the idea of this power, however

I don't see why it needs to tie to power level. There are several legendary class abilities that are not at all tied to power level (in the two published books). That said, I don't have a problem with the changes.

Elemental Companion: *snip*
Reason for changes: The edited power accomplishes everything your power did, but grants relevance to all power levels. The added familiar-like abilities allow the forgemaster communication with his ally, even if they don't share a language. I changed the XP loss to class level, because that's what it is for familiars.

Looks good.

Dwarven Hero (Ex): *snip*
Reason for changes: Variable radius makes sense, but the war cry is too powerful as part of this ability to be used more than once per day. Another option is to make the war cry a separate ability and make it more powerful altogether. Further, the forgemaster might gain a +1 circumstance bonus to Charaisma based schecks with dwarves as an automatic class feature.

For the war cry, a duration of the effect is not specified. Allied dwarves retain this bonus while they remain in the area of effect while fighting, and for 5 rounds there after.

The rest of the changes sounded good to me. Thanks for doing all this work Khur!

 

[Ruavel]

Maitre additional quest: Scene 1, take 2...

Here's the revised additional quest... I intend to put this one first as there is some follow on into the original quest (as you will observe if you read it)...

as always, constructive comments are greatly appreciated...

To truly be considered a master of fencing, the prospective maitre must bring something more to the art than just her experience with the rapier and time must be spent furthering swordplay above all other things. In her desire to improve her swordsmanship and that of others, the upcoming maitre must spend a significant period of time away from her homeland studying the fighting styles of another race or culture. The subject of her studies can be located no closer than 500 miles from the maitre’s base of operations, although some of the greatest maitre have gone so far as to spend their time studying the combat techniques of bizarre races on alternate planes. Furthermore the period of time actually spent analysing this chosen subject must be no less than 90 days total. These need not be consecutive but the research period must be completed within 180 days of its starting date.

For the study to be valid, the subject of the maitre’s research must have obvious differences from the normal fighting styles of her own culture and race. For example after spending several weeks aiding an elven community far from her home, Trinnen val Kemeer spent another four months with group of young elves as they tutored in the ways of melding their graceful swordplay with the inherent magic of their people. The elves would not teach Trinnen any aspect of these exquisite techniques but she was permitted to watch the student practice, make notes on what she saw and occasionally spar with the pupils.

At the conclusion of her research period, the maitre should be ready to confidently challenge an exponent of this system of combat so as to demonstrate not only her own skill but also the efficacy of rapier fencing. Thanks to the time spent watching and scrutinizing the students and masters of they subject, the aspiring maitre may make and Int check (DC 15) prior to the comment of a challenge bout. If successful, the prospective maitre’s understanding of the attacks and defensive stances her opponent will use gives her a +2 Dodge bonus to her AC and a +2 circumstance bonus to attacks. Such challenges end when an opponent yields to her adversary in recognition of their superior skill, however some less honorable combatants have resorted to slaying their opponents to prove the dominance of their style.

The study of such exotic combat methods should ultimately produce a comprehensive analysis of the weapons, tactics, protective equipment, and some of the more impressive manoeuvres used by the people or school studied, their comparative strengths and weaknesses, and a discussion on the possible adaptation of any appropriate skills or equipment into the school of fencing. Before accepting a challenge from a prospective maitre (see below), some existing maitre expect the challenger to demonstrate their research, either through discussion, written analysis or physical exhibition.

I know it's a big read, but rather than just having poor Khur read everything, I thought I'd gets "everyone's" assistance...

btw - thanx for the last round of feedback... it was insightful and very useful...

 

[Ruavel]

King's Warden

I could have sworn I already posted this edit of the King's Warden... may I did it in a dream... *shrug* who knows...

anyway, here's the King's Warden.. I think it's pretty much done... If anyone spots any layout/format errors, let me know ASAP..

thanks...

 

[Khur]

Why do odd numbers work best? No Int requirement.

I should have said that odd numbers are given value by using them as requirements; that's why you see feats with requirements of odd-numbered stats. It's your call on the Int requirement, but Int is how well a character learns and reasons. It also directly influences the Craft skill. I'd say at a minimum, the forgemaster should be required to have no Int penalty.

I thought about some kind of mystical experience, but a forgemaster already has basically 3 quests. I think that's enough. More would be overkill.

And right you are, but the existing quests can be modified to include high-ranking clergy. Further, the final ceremony can have religious as well as secular significance. One of the Special requirements could be devotion to the god of craft (or what have you). The dwarven hero part of special requirements could be moved to the first quest; that is, the king and clergy give the would-be forgemaster a heroic quest, if they think he still needs to prove himself. I think that quest already states the king may test the aspirant in this way.

One with the Earth (Sp): Having a mystic tie to the knowledge of stoneworking, a forgemaster is able to call upon 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells of the Earth domain.

I disagree. Stone shape can be very powerful. It had a two-fold purpose as well. Stone shape can be used to create works of art and it can also have a utility use....

It's your call, but the Earth Domain includes stone shape, as well as soften earth and stone, and magic stone. My goal in editing many of these classes was to make all of the powers so tasty that a player would agonize over them. The choice to give up casting a 3rd-level spell a few times a day isn't that hard. Have you considered the spell stone tell?

Tireless Champion.... I don't see why it needs to tie to power level. There are several legendary class abilities that are not at all tied to power level (in the two published books). That said, I don't have a problem with the changes.

Well, I can't say anything for the fine staff at FFG, but my feeling was: if a power isn't tied to power level, but it's a good power, then everyone will choose that power at level one, to avoid losing the power level benefits of other abilities. If that's what you want to happen as a designer, that's fine, but it shouldn't be a side effect of not thinking the power through. Almost any power can have variable effects that can be altered by power level.

As for the books, I have no idea what they read like. I've only read an excerpt from the Path of the Sword since I haven't received my prize yet. Has anyone else?

 

[RedCliff]

books

As for the books, I have no idea what they read like. I've only read an excerpt from the Path of the Sword since I haven't received my prize yet. Has anyone else?

Nope. But I think Morrus was waiting on a few addresses for a while, so he only sent them to FFG a few days ago, maybe a week by now.