Currency rules
There is also the issue that, in some ways, a clever skill challenge that yields some minion allies is not radically different from a clever tactical manoeuvre that uses the vines (or whatever) to achieve some sort of success in a combat. This latter sort of thing is not subject to an XP tax nor does it suck up a magic item slot.
I agree that the mechanics set some parameters on all this - when an Nth level PC recruits some followers, for example, they're likely to be level N or so, and this in turns sets considerations on their effectiveness (using magic items, monsters, ranger beasts, daily summoning powers, etc as guidelines). Likewise, the system suggests as typical penalties either -2 (hindrance) or -5 (really serious hindrance), which are in the neighbourhood of 15% and 40% reductions in effectiveness given the 60% or so baseline for success assumed by the rules.
But here's what Vincent Baker says about currency (comment 25 on the linked webpage):
And here (post #41) he says
The currency rule that governs the consequences, for future interaction with dwarves, of being someone who led some dwarves to their deaths under the feet of a Behemoth, are in my view unstated in the 4e rules, and not easily ascertained just by focusing on level, and what follows from level.
And the dwarf thing is just one example. I've got a drow worshipper of Corellon who is part of a secret cult of Corellon that has both drow and surface-elf members, and who is also a Demonskin Adept chaos sorcerer who hopes to harness the powers of the elemental chaos to defeat Lolth and demonkind. He's intrigued by the Queen of Chaos, of whom he's dreamt but knows little. And he has chaos runes that appeared spontaneously on his demonskins and on the inside of the eyelids after that dream. That's a lot of fictional positioning, which has implications in all sorts of places not only for setting up situations but for resolving them, but the approach I use is pretty ad hoc. For example, the fact that he's very obviously a cultist of some sort means that he attracts a lot of attention from devils, devil-worshippers etc trying to strike bargains. When this happens in the course of resolving a conflict it has implications for his effectiveness and resources. In effect, by choosing this positioning the player has brought it about that his effectiveness and resources will be affected in certain ways. But the rules that govern those consequences are pretty opaque and open-ended.
Similar things are true for the tiefling paladin of the Raven Queen (fictional positioning that effects interactions with undead, and catoblepases, and is also about to become relevant as they head to a city from the old dragonborn empire). The wizard scholar has more of his fictional positioning express mechanically (via rules for knowledge checks and rituals, mostly) and so the player has more obvious and mechanically determined currency rules governing the PC. But there are complexities even for this player. The PC carries two parts of the Rod of 7 Parts, which (in my game) is an artefact linked to Erathis, and also to old Nerath, and which the wizard uses from time to time to learn facts about Nerath, to identify old ruins, etc. I tend to treat these as knowledge checks which risk psycic or similar damage on a failure (as the item feedbacks, or the PC's prayer to Erathis is rejected, or whatever) - I guess this is probably a fairly standard use of page 42, but still it's not something that I feel the rules give as much guidance on as they could.
So anyway, I agree that level, and all that follows from it, helps - for me it is DC-setting that is most important in this respect - but there are other aspects of the currency rules that I find hard to pin down, and on which some guidance would probably be helpful.
In fact, it suggests the opposite - because it suggests that NPCs allies deduct XP from an encounter equal to their own XP value, which is quite different from your magic-item approach.
There is also the issue that, in some ways, a clever skill challenge that yields some minion allies is not radically different from a clever tactical manoeuvre that uses the vines (or whatever) to achieve some sort of success in a combat. This latter sort of thing is not subject to an XP tax nor does it suck up a magic item slot.
I'm not sure. There are a lot of consequences that can flow from a skill challenge, for example, that are hard to model as conditions or magic items. The effects of these tend to be confined either to tactical considerations, or to bonues to skills that are pretty tightly mechanically defined (eg Arcana check used for a ritual, or knowledge skill used for a Monster Knowledge check). But what about a -2 penalty for Diplomacy with dwarves until the stain of defeat is removed? This is a "condition" that is not very well-defined mechanically, nor in terms of level (and it's certainly not subject to Remove Affliction). It also further distinguishes the dwarven NPCs from the Ebony Fly - there is no magic item I'm aware of that causes this sort of penalty when used/destroyed.
I agree that the mechanics set some parameters on all this - when an Nth level PC recruits some followers, for example, they're likely to be level N or so, and this in turns sets considerations on their effectiveness (using magic items, monsters, ranger beasts, daily summoning powers, etc as guidelines). Likewise, the system suggests as typical penalties either -2 (hindrance) or -5 (really serious hindrance), which are in the neighbourhood of 15% and 40% reductions in effectiveness given the 60% or so baseline for success assumed by the rules.
But here's what Vincent Baker says about currency (comment 25 on the linked webpage):
Cycles of effectiveness, resource, and positioning, all trading off one into the next. That's currency. (So however it happens in play, that's your game's systemic currency, whether you have character sheets or dice or whatever or none.)
And here (post #41) he says
Emily's spectacular insight here is the recognition of fully fiction-to-fiction, ad-hoc, but binding currency rules. "There is a gun present, and it's loaded" is a fact of (let's say) positioning, and "I shoot you" is an act of effectiveness. "If there's a loaded gun present, I can shoot you with it" is a currency rule. It's the same kind of rule, except fiction-to-fiction, as the mechanic-to-mechanic "If my character's rank score is greater than yours, I get +1 to attempts to intimidate you"!
The currency rule that governs the consequences, for future interaction with dwarves, of being someone who led some dwarves to their deaths under the feet of a Behemoth, are in my view unstated in the 4e rules, and not easily ascertained just by focusing on level, and what follows from level.
I'm not 100% sure where you're going with this. The answer, I think is yes (even "of course") - but the difficulty of those Diplomacy checks, and the fictional consequences of both success and failure, should be shaped by the positional fact of being someone who led some dwarves to their deaths under the feet of a Behemoth.
And the dwarf thing is just one example. I've got a drow worshipper of Corellon who is part of a secret cult of Corellon that has both drow and surface-elf members, and who is also a Demonskin Adept chaos sorcerer who hopes to harness the powers of the elemental chaos to defeat Lolth and demonkind. He's intrigued by the Queen of Chaos, of whom he's dreamt but knows little. And he has chaos runes that appeared spontaneously on his demonskins and on the inside of the eyelids after that dream. That's a lot of fictional positioning, which has implications in all sorts of places not only for setting up situations but for resolving them, but the approach I use is pretty ad hoc. For example, the fact that he's very obviously a cultist of some sort means that he attracts a lot of attention from devils, devil-worshippers etc trying to strike bargains. When this happens in the course of resolving a conflict it has implications for his effectiveness and resources. In effect, by choosing this positioning the player has brought it about that his effectiveness and resources will be affected in certain ways. But the rules that govern those consequences are pretty opaque and open-ended.
Similar things are true for the tiefling paladin of the Raven Queen (fictional positioning that effects interactions with undead, and catoblepases, and is also about to become relevant as they head to a city from the old dragonborn empire). The wizard scholar has more of his fictional positioning express mechanically (via rules for knowledge checks and rituals, mostly) and so the player has more obvious and mechanically determined currency rules governing the PC. But there are complexities even for this player. The PC carries two parts of the Rod of 7 Parts, which (in my game) is an artefact linked to Erathis, and also to old Nerath, and which the wizard uses from time to time to learn facts about Nerath, to identify old ruins, etc. I tend to treat these as knowledge checks which risk psycic or similar damage on a failure (as the item feedbacks, or the PC's prayer to Erathis is rejected, or whatever) - I guess this is probably a fairly standard use of page 42, but still it's not something that I feel the rules give as much guidance on as they could.
So anyway, I agree that level, and all that follows from it, helps - for me it is DC-setting that is most important in this respect - but there are other aspects of the currency rules that I find hard to pin down, and on which some guidance would probably be helpful.
