Fiddling with Fighters

[steeldragons]

Adjustments made to Warlord. What do folks think?

 

[Quickleaf]

I haven't had time to give these sub-classes the thorough looking over they deserve, but I like what you're doing so far

On a general note I'm wary of certain sub-classes (the Weaponmaster) being more combat oriented than, say, the Hero of Destiny which has Hero's Renown (a background feature essentially) @10th and an anti-aging ability [MENTION=6749508]18[/MENTION]th. Whereas Weaponmaster gets Combat Superiority @10th and Enhanced Weapon Mastery [MENTION=6749508]18[/MENTION]th. While I agree that it's good to accommodate different play styles, I also think it's important that there is relative parity between sub-classes in terms of offering power in combat vs. power in other areas. For example, I would probably soup up the Hero's Renown substantially. Maybe even swap out one of the Weaponmaster's features for some kind of identification/appraisal of arms & armor ability. Just two coppers.

Here are my comments on your Warlord...

Warlord

3rd: Commanding Presence
At 3rd level you have a variety of commands at your disposal that you can use in battle. As your full action (unless otherwise specified, below), your Commanding Presence extends outward from the Warlord's position to a range of 5' per level. The number of allies within that radius that are effected by the warlord's presence can not exceed the warlord's Cha. modifier + level. The warlord uses Commanding Presence a number of times equal to 1 + Charisma modifier before requiring a short or long rest.

There's no such thing as a "full action" in 5e. Do you mean it requires your Action for that turn?

You choose one of the following each turn you use your Commanding Presence to effect those around you:

• Reassuring Presence: You grant advantage to a single save roll to allies within your radius who can see you.

• 
  How long does this last for? I.e. a single save within what time span? Is it *any* save the ally chooses or does the warlord PC choose one save in particular. Are they saying "everybody dodge the fireball!" or are they giving some kind of general pep-talk?
  
  

  [*]Tactical Advantage: When you make an attack, you grant advantage to attack rolls within your Command radius that can see and hear you.

  Assuming you mean "you grant advantage to your allies' attack rolls". Again, how long? Seems too easy to me, just a blanket advantage for potentially the entire party's attacks without the warlord PC having to do any thinking to achieve it. Maybe advantage against a specific enemy the warlord PC attacks (hit or miss)?
  
  

  [*]Coordinated Retreat: Allies within your Command radius can take the Disengage action as a reaction. You, also, gain the Disengage action at the end of your turn.

  Solid.
  
  

  [*]Spur to Action: You grant advantage on the next initiative roll of allies that can see and hear you.

  Very circumstantial. There's a reason the 4e warlord gave a passive initiative bonus to the party.
  
  

  [*]Coordinated Offense: Allies within our radius can take the Attack or Dodge action as a bonus action if they haven't already taken a bonus action.

  Wow, that's very powerful. Particularly in a game without feats where you can effectively give the entire party the benefit of one of the "bonus action attack" feats.
  
  

  [*]Inspiring Word: You and allies within your radius can spend a HD to renew your hit points during combat. If not in battle and used during a short rest, the warlord's inspiring word grants an extra/additional 1 HD for any allies that can see and hear you.

  Granting allies the ability to spend HD to renew hit points make sense for the warlord. I would recommend that allies at the least must spend a bonus action to do so. Might also be worth clarifying by that "a HD" you mean "1 HD" and 1 HD only.
  
  

  Charismatic Leader
  The warlord, be it through valor and sacrifice to warrant devotion or cruelty and intimidation to warrant fear, is a forceful personality among [what they often consider] "their" comrades or troops. The warlord gains proficiency with Charisma in addition to their other fighter abilities (Str. & Con.). For ability rolls that would normally use Constitution, the warlord can use their Charisma score/modifier instead if it is higher.

  Proficiency with Charisma is really vague. Most Charisma checks end up being tied to a particular skill.
  
  Interesting that you added that bit about using CHA instead of CON...doesn't really seem like the the warlord's theme to me.
  
  

  7th: Into the Ground
  As a bonus action following a successful melee weapon attack, you force the target to make a Strength save to beat DC 8 + proficiency bonus + Str. modifer. Failure means you have successfully imposed the prone condition. The warlord may make this attempt 1 + Str. mod. before requiring a long rest.

  I'm not sure you need the limit on number of times you can perform this between rests. It seems to me that it would be balanced to let this happen at-will since you've got good built-in limits: bonus action + you need to hit. I would also include a size category based limit, for example no monsters more than one size category bigger than the warlord.
  
  

  10th: Lead by Example
  When you make a successful weapon attack that deals maximum damage or brings a foe to 0 or less hit points, all allies within who can see you roll their next attack roll with advantage.

  Maximum damage is finicky to track and also screws over great axe or great sword wielders (2d6 damage). Critical hits, instead, might be more fair and more recognizable even if rarer for most other weapons.
  
  

  15th: Inspiring Presence
  When you use your Inspiring Word to spend HD during a battle now lets allies within your Commanding Presence radius who can see and hear can spend 2 HD to renew hit points.

  Solid.
  
  

  18th: Devastating Offensive
  At 18th level, all attacks made by yourself and allies who can see you add your Cha. modifier to damage rolls.

  I have a hard time balancing high-level abilities. I think this is solid, but with multi-attacks flying around, this could add up to some serious damage... Just to give you an idea of the numbers, an 18th level party of five could be looking at something like +42 damage on a nova round. And this is a pretty conservative estimate.
  
  18th level Fighter (warlord), bonus action feat, action surge, 16 cha: 7 attacks = +21 damage
  18th level Rogue (thief), scimitar of speed: 2 attacks = +6 damage
  18th level Cleric (war): 2 attacks = +6 damage
  18th level Wizard (evoker): casts a saving throw based spell
  18th level Ranger, hasted: 3 attacks = +9 damage
  
  Looking at monster hit points at higher levels I think it's cool. It does give the group an edge against hordes of weaker foes, which does seem to suit the warlord well.

 

[steeldragons]

On a general note I'm wary of certain sub-classes (the Weaponmaster) being more combat oriented than, say, the Hero of Destiny which has Hero's Renown (a background feature essentially) @10th and an anti-aging ability 18th. Whereas Weaponmaster gets Combat Superiority @10th and Enhanced Weapon Mastery 18th. While I agree that it's good to accommodate different play styles, I also think it's important that there is relative parity between sub-classes in terms of offering power in combat vs. power in other areas. For example, I would probably soup up the Hero's Renown substantially. Maybe even swap out one of the Weaponmaster's features for some kind of identification/appraisal of arms & armor ability. Just two coppers.

Perhaps. I'll look at it again. The anti-aging of Druid's doesn't come in until 18th level...Monk's get it at 15th and since I figured is was one of "the monk's things" I didn't want to bring it in earlier than them...and stories (Heracles, Aragorn, Gilgamesh,...Biblical heroes/kings, if you like) of legendary heroes living...well, well-beyond what we'd consider a normal human lifespan, it seemed thematically appropriate. I am disappointed by the lack of..."pow!" for a capstone ability...but at the same time, gaining decades of life to continue your legend/build your myth is no small/trinket ability.

Least that's my thinking.

Here are my comments on your Warlord...

Fire away!

There's no such thing as a "full action" in 5e. Do you mean it requires your Action for that turn?

Yes. Correct. If this is going to be the Warlord's main shtick/differentiating feature, then it (in most cases) needs to be what they are spending htheir time doing...other than those feats that specify the warlord also acts.

How long does this last for? I.e. a single save within what time span? Is it *any* save the ally chooses or does the warlord PC choose one save in particular. Are they saying "everybody dodge the fireball!" or are they giving some kind of general pep-talk?

I was thinking, kinda, both/either. But yes, one save for each character...I was kind of just assuming this would be used for, like, incoming area effects (fireballs, breath weapons, a volley of arrows, a cavalry charge, etc...)...things that would be effecting the warlord and/or everyone around them. I suppose I should/could just specify "the next save roll of all allies within the Command Radius while the Commanding Presence is in effect, as long as they are still within the Command Radius."

But thanks for pointing out that I missed adding in a duration. I am rather torn, as I thing the Presence, itself, should be able to last for a little while...since it has limits to its uses.

On the other hand, most of the abilities are things that should be occurring on the warlord's turn or the round immediately after...and the warlord character/player is going to want to be "Doing something" to shape the battle every round they can...whether that is a straight attack or something to effect their allies/"control" the battle...

So I'm not sure what the duration should be...something like "...until the end of your next turn. You may only use you Commanding Presence for one effect at a time." seems like it might work...flavor/story wise, I'm having difficulty/not sure how effective that would make it in actual play, though.

Assuming you mean "you grant advantage to your allies' attack rolls". Again, how long? Seems too easy to me, just a blanket advantage for potentially the entire party's attacks without the warlord PC having to do any thinking to achieve it. Maybe advantage against a specific enemy the warlord PC attacks (hit or miss)?

Yes. Noted for an edit. Thanks. As for the warlord's "thought"/involvement, they are using/giving up their action to use this Presence to let everyone else attack. I was thinking/under the impression using -er, um, I mean, "facilitating" the effectiveness of their allies in battle was the warlord's primary thing/draw.

Solid.

Thanks.

Very circumstantial. There's a reason the 4e warlord gave a passive initiative bonus to the party.

Annnd that reason was...to be overpowered? Circumstantial is fine for me. If you have a number of options...you can't be using them all of the time whenever you want to begin with. Choose to use this when the circumstances make it a benefit...if those circumstances don't arise, you have other things to do with this...(for lack of a betterm term) "power."

Wow, that's very powerful. Particularly in a game without feats where you can effectively give the entire party the benefit of one of the "bonus action attack" feats.

Well, I was wondering about that. I was thinking/hoping that the stipulation that they can't have already used their bonus action might make it not universally useful/OPed, since several other classes' features require the use of the bonus action and you -if I understand the rules properly- can only ever have/make a single Bonus Action on your turn. Perhaps the Tactical Advantage needs be the only attack oriented power.

Granting allies the ability to spend HD to renew hit points make sense for the warlord. I would recommend that allies at the least must spend a bonus action to do so. Might also be worth clarifying by that "a HD" you mean "1 HD" and 1 HD only.

A wise/just addition.

Proficiency with Charisma is really vague. Most Charisma checks end up being tied to a particular skill.

Yes...as are all abilities. They are "commanding/leader" kind of skills -Persuasion, Intimidation, Deception- things a leader of troops/someone engaged in facing/negotiating with prospective enemies [or allies] would, probably, have cause to use on a regular basis.

Interesting that you added that bit about using CHA instead of CON...doesn't really seem like the the warlord's theme to me.

In all honesty, this was a complete "tack on" since the Cavalier I did has Charisma proficiency that allows this [their "Strength of Character" feature]...I was, really just duplicating it and...in no small part...because simple proficiency to Charisma seemed "vague", e.g. didn't seem like that impressive or too limited situationally to be a useful [and defining] warlord trait. hahaha.

I am, of course, open to suggestions for something else...let the Cav. have their cake and not have to share it with the War.

I'm not sure you need the limit on number of times you can perform this between rests. It seems to me that it would be balanced to let this happen at-will since you've got good built-in limits: bonus action + you need to hit. I would also include a size category based limit, for example no monsters more than one size category bigger than the warlord.

This is another area I was wondering/unsure/concerned about...Ultimately, it seems even with the bonus action, needing to hit, and the possibility of a failed save, it is an easily abusable trait -perhaps breakingly so- to make it "at will." The immediate question of "Is this every round?!" made me think, indeed, it is too powerful.

Maximum damage is finicky to track and also screws over great axe or great sword wielders (2d6 damage). Critical hits, instead, might be more fair and more recognizable even if rarer for most other weapons.

Good point. Just seemed that max. damage might, statistically, make this a more available feature (again, without being OPed) than only on Critical Hits. Oooooh. I see. Since people with "great" axes & "great" swords have to roll two dice, warlords with "great" weapons have their chances of getting max damage doubled...fair point. However, people with "great" axes and "great" swords are always doing more damage than others anyway..."screws over" is a bit strong, really. ...for a Warlord archetype, skew away from using "great" weapons...I think I can live with that.

Solid.

Thanks, again.

I have a hard time balancing high-level abilities. I think this is solid, but with multi-attacks flying around, this could add up to some serious damage... Just to give you an idea of the numbers, an 18th level party of five could be looking at something like +42 damage on a nova round. And this is a pretty conservative estimate. -snip-

It's a fair point, but it is, as you note,an 18th level ability. Having the party be able to deal a great big bunch of extra damage when the warlord uses this makes it a..."devastating offensive."

Still any/all attacks...every combat, every round...Perhaps, it could/should be limited by rests.

 

[steeldragons]

Here's the latest rendition of Steel Dragon's Warlord subclass:

The Warlord
Whether leading organized troops, maurauding bandits or just among adventuring companions, the warlord is an imposing commander and formidable presence on the field of battle. With their knowledge of combat techniques and tactics, maneuvers and strategy, those who follow the warlord’s direction greatly enhance their chances for success in combat. Sometimes leading from the vanguard, sometimes from the rear, sometimes advising other leaders behind the scenes, the warlord’s practical know-how is as important to their success, if not moreso, as the strength of their sword.

3rd: Stalwart Commander
At 3rd level you have a variety of commands at your disposal that you can use in battle. When the warlord uses their action to take the Help action, instead of its normal use, the warlord can choose to assist their allies in one of the following ways:

• Reassuring Presence: You grant advantage to a save roll to allies within a 10’ radius who can see you.
• Coordinate Retreat: You grant a bonus action for all allies within 10’ to take the Disengage action.
• Spur to Action: You grant advantage on the next initiative roll of an ally that can see and hear you.
• Coordinate Offense: You grant advantage to an ally within 10’ who can see and hear you on their next Attack roll.
• Move!: You grant allies within a 10’ radius who can see and hear you a reaction of an additional 10’ of movement to be taken on their next turn, if they so choose.

At 9th level, the warlord command radius extends to 20’.

Inspiring Word
As a bonus action, the warlord lets themselves or an ally within a 20’ radius who can see and hear them use one of their HD to refresh hit points during combat. The warlord can also use Inspiring Word to grant 1 extra HD for up to 1 + Cha. modifier allies on a `short rest. The warlord may use Inspiring Word 1 + Cha. modifier times before needing a short or long rest.

At 9th level, the warlord can effect themselves and one other ally within range at the same time. At 16th the warlord can effect themselves and two allies within range with a single Inspiring Word.

7th: Into the Ground: As a bonus action following a successful melee weapon attack, you force the target not more than 1 size category larger than the warlord to make a Strength save to beat DC 8 + proficiency bonus + Str. modifer. Failure means you have successfully imposed the prone condition on the target.

10th: Lead by Example: When you make a successful weapon attack that deals maximum damage or brings a foe to 0 or less hit points, all allies who can see you roll their next attack roll with advantage.

15th: Inspiring Presence: When you use your Inspiring Word to spend HD during a battle, it now effects all allies within a 50’ radius who can see and hear you. You must complete a long rest before using this feature again.

18th: Devastating Offensive: At 18th level, all attacks made by yourself and allies within 50’ who are aware of your presence add your Cha. modifier to damage rolls.

 

[steeldragons]

Nevermind. I already posted the Weaponmaster...and though I'm not in love with the name, I think the only change to him thus far has been changing "Thrower" to "Grenadier" as a weapon group name.

 

[Quartz]

Inspiring Word

This:

As a bonus action, the warlord lets themselves or an ally within a 20’ radius who can see and hear them use one of their HD to refresh hit points during combat. The warlord can also use Inspiring Word to grant 1 extra HD for up to 1 + Cha. modifier allies on a `short rest. The warlord may use Inspiring Word 1 + Cha. modifier times before needing a short or long rest.

Does not mesh with this:

At 9th level, the warlord can effect themselves and one other ally within range at the same time. At 16th the warlord can effect themselves and two allies within range with a single Inspiring Word.

18th: Devastating Offensive: At 18th level, all attacks made by yourself and allies within 50’ who are aware of your presence add your Cha. modifier to damage rolls.

You might want to restrict that to weapon or even just melee attacks - consider Eldritch Blast already augmented by Agonising Blast.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Lol I just posted comments on your Cavalier in the other thread.

Your Dwarven Defender does raise a conceptual question: Where do we draw the line with sub-classes being specific or having requisites?

Personally I love the concept, think it has good traction, and at first blush your conversion effort isn't broken (meaning, it's quite good!). But is there a compelling reason to include a racial and alignment requisite? Obviously, this is for your games, but I think it does raise a greater question about our expectations of professional game designers.

The DMG does raise the possibility of racial restrictions on classes. IIRC it gives an example of a world where only elves can be bards.

 

[steeldragons]

Does not mesh with this:

You might want to restrict that to weapon or even just melee attacks - consider Eldritch Blast already augmented by Agonising Blast.

I'm not sure how it doesn't mesh. When you become higher levels, you can use an Inspiring Word for yourself and an ally (and then two other allies at 16th) instead of you or an ally.

The 18th level ability, I was afraid might be a bit OPed -all allies within 50' is...going to be pretty much everyone on your side all the time...But, on the other hand, it is a "capstone" ability really...and only applies for 2 levels worth of play...how much/high can that Cha. bonus be?

Would it be better if I limited it to 20'? Or, following the IW progression make it the Warlord and 3 allies of their choice within 20'? Does that suitably curb it?

EDIT: Basically, I'm not following. lol. What is the parallel/can you explain the comparison to Agonizing Blast?

 

[Mephista]

Mind if I put up my own homebrew here instead of a new thread, or would you prefer to avoid the clutter?

 

[steeldragons]

Mind if I put up my own homebrew here instead of a new thread, or would you prefer to avoid the clutter?

Not at all. Let's compare notes!