Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

[Upper_Krust]

Hey GC!

It's mentioned in Faces of Evil, which is essential reading for the fiend-literate. Also, and more importantly, it's damned cool.

Two points of note.

Firstly its illogical. Secondly it adheres to the 2nd Edition (for all intents and puposes statless) approach of virtually infinite power deities, and is a wholly useless approach for epic games, which, lets face it, are the only games that matter for the puposes of statting such beings.

Well, exactly. That was the original poster's point - fiend lords ought to, by rights, be far more powerful than mere gods in some respects.

Although I think the radii given for divine realms is pathetically small, and that ought to be fixed as well.

I agree with you on that.

Although personally I would limit the size of such realms to the number of (kosmically linked) planets that such beings are known to.

So, for instance, Lolth is known on a about eight worlds according to Q1: Queen of the Demonweb Pits, to which we can add Oerth and Toril. So Lolths layers would perhaps cover as much area as ten planets.

First, you have to understand that distances don't really exist in the Outer Planes as such. Space and time as they're known on the Material Plane don't reach beyond (or into) the Astral. The Outer Planes are realms of archetypes and ideas, of souls and spirit. Terrain shifts and warps as the ideas that make it up change, all travel times are variable, and things look different depending on who is looking at them.

I would certainly agree with you that such fundamental forces are flexible in the outer planes but I think the main crux of our differences, scale, still applies...

Infinity, then, is just another idea, and an infinite realm is not necessarily more potent or more full of resources than a finite one.

...glad to hear you say it.

For all intents and purposes then theres no benefit to having an infinite acre chunk of real estate in the planes beyond simply having a realm a few thousand miles in diameter.

I suppose it's like your "outsider hit dice don't correspond with size" maxim - the power inherent in a realm, and the difficulty of controlling it, has nothing to do with perceived size or travel time.

Exactly!

Even given that, the power of an entire planar layer dwarfs that of any mere god's domain. Abyssal layers, being only a small percentage of the entire Abyss, are generally not as important as the layers of other planes, however.

Yes but haven't you just determined above that infinite real estate is irrelevant in the planes.

Frankly this seems to solidify the kosmically localised approach as being the best solution.

Secondly, even if you don't buy the preceding (though I believe it is not only the only interpretation that fits what evidence we have in both Planescape and the 1st edition Manual of the Planes, but also far more interesting than treating the Outer Planes as if they were mere Material landscapes) it should be obvious that a fiendish lord doesn't increase the size of her holdings linearly. She doesn't, for example, add 100 miles to the diameter of her dominion until the end of time.

I totally agree, such an endeavour would be pointless.

Conquering a layer of the Abyss means that the will of the would-be conquerer is pitted directly against the will of the layer itself, and the layer, if it is conquered at all, is conquered all at once.

Absolutely.

Fraz'Urb-luu, then, doesn't control "his" layer yet. He controls a realm within it, as if he were a mere godling. When he regains his previous status, the entire layer will be his to mold.

This is obviously not true, or there would be no endangered species in the real world.

Species in the real world grow old and die. Outsiders don't. Species in the real world need to grow to adulthood before they can mate. Outsiders don't.

Predation, the hostile nature of the Abyss itself (which despises all life, even its own), and constant warfare keep the numbers down to whatever level you need them to be at.

The Demon Princes realms are stable enough for them to begin breeding programs. All a demon prince needs to do is remove 2 demons from its retinue and have them quarantined for 50 years and hey presto you have ourself a billion strong army in 50 years.

Although, as I said earlier, numbers alone aren't really important - it's the power of the alignment they represent.

Numbers are important. Superior equipment, tactics and training only get you so far against weight of numbers (The Russian Front in the 2nd World War would be a good example of that in practice).

You could also assume that demonic populations are limited by the power supplied by the Abyss itself, and can never exceed the amount of (let's call it primal flux - you understand the reference, I think?) provided by chaotic and evil actions on the Material Plane and elsewhere

I would go along with this idea, yes. In fact its something I already touch on in the Immortals Handbook Bestiary and how numerology is very important to the planes.

The key factor is that their resources are not infinite, but in fact limited.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

Yes but haven't you just determined above that infinite real estate is irrelevant in the planes.

Frankly this seems to solidify the kosmically localised approach as being the best solution.

If size is irrelevant, there's no good reason to shrink an Abyssal prince's dominion down.

Abyssal princes rule entire layers of the Abyss by definition (2nd edition called them Abyssal lords, but the same applies). If they rule only part of a layer they're not princes, but mere lords. Why arbitrarily change that for no reason? Don't limit yourself! Think big! The planes should be vast and unlimited and beautiful, not small and bounded and sad (even the sad, ugly planes should be vast and beautiful in their way).

I would still argue that ruling an entire layer is better than ruling a single realm in one - not because it covers more area, but because the ruler would gain the full benefit of the entire layer's energy.

Species in the real world grow old and die. Outsiders don't. Species in the real world need to grow to adulthood before they can mate. Outsiders don't.

The Abyss is filled with a violent hatred for all life (including demonic life). Earth isn't.

All a demon prince needs to do is remove 2 demons from its retinue and have them quarantined for 50 years and hey presto you have ourself a billion strong army in 50 years.

First of all, where do you quarantine a billion demons? You're going to have to stow them somewhere in the Abyss, which has a tendency to turn toxic and malevolent even toward its natives. Further, putting any significant number of demons in a relatively small (or even a large) area is a surefire recipe for internecine war. Come back a year later and they'll either all have eaten one another or there'll be just one big hungry one, who will proceed to conquer the layer for itself.

Numbers are important.

No, they're not, not when the war is between alignments rather than individuals. If demons win a battle against other outsiders, it's because their vision of chaotic evil is more prevalent and successful than the alternative take on alignments.

Russians might not have been as disciplined or as well-supplied as the Germans, but they weren't devouring one another or destroying their lessers with storms of fiendish energy purely for the pleasure of watching them sizzle either. They weren't tanar'ri, which is why any analogy involving humans is going to fall short. We're not talking about humans! Chaos and evil turn on themselves and can't be controlled. They do this because it works for them. Not always, but if an army of Chaos doesn't use chaotic tactics they're going to lose, because Law certainly isn't their strength. At the same time, Chaos has inherent weaknesses, and it's the relative weaknesses and strengths of Chaos, and how well the tanar'ri tacticians and troops are attuned with it, that will determine victory.

I hope I'm not getting too mystical or abstract for anyone. Demons are "real" as much as anything in D&D is, but they exist on a different level of being. They're abstract concepts made incarnate, which is why they should be treated differently than a horde of orcs or ferrets or what have you. Things like troop numbers or breeding programs or the size of the various Abyssal layers isn't going to guarantee victory for them - only spreading Chaos and Evil more effectively than others can spread Law or Good.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey GC!

If size is irrelevant, there's no good reason to shrink an Abyssal prince's dominion down.

Theres a very obvious reason. Security. If Demon Prince #A has perhaps a billion demons hes not going to want to spread them out over a solar system sized chunk of real estate when the army of Demon Prince #B could enter and take the forces piecemeal.

Abyssal princes rule entire layers of the Abyss by definition (2nd edition called them Abyssal lords, but the same applies). If they rule only part of a layer they're not princes, but mere lords.

I'm familiar with the terminology.

Why arbitrarily change that for no reason?

I'm not changing it as much as I am defining it.

Don't limit yourself! Think big!

Infinity isn't just a big number its a pointless one.

The planes should be vast and unlimited and beautiful, not small and bounded and sad (even the sad, ugly planes should be vast and beautiful in their way).

I have no qualms with the planes being infinite (as irrelevant as the definition is). My point is that the territories ruled over by the demon princes are not infinite. They do not possess infinite resources nor troops.

I would still argue that ruling an entire layer is better than ruling a single realm in one - not because it covers more area, but because the ruler would gain the full benefit of the entire layer's energy.

You could just as easily infer that ruling the kosmically localised area attributes this power. In effect the demon rules all others (that are known) and becomes the spiritual pole (shamballa) of that realm.

The Abyss is filled with a violent hatred for all life (including demonic life). Earth isn't.

That hardly contradicts the points I raised though does it.

First of all, where do you quarantine a billion demons?

Are you telling me these infinite realms can't spare a thousand square miles? Not to mention that for the first 20 years you would need less than a square mile to house your forces.

You're going to have to stow them somewhere in the Abyss, which has a tendency to turn toxic and malevolent even toward its natives.

Yet all the major demon princes have been living there for supposedly millenia and they are perfectly fine.

Not to mention the fact that we don't really have to stow them in the Abyss since many demon princes seemingly control prime material worlds (Lolth Q1) and/or kingdoms.

Further, putting any significant number of demons in a relatively small (or even a large) area is a surefire recipe for internecine war. Come back a year later and they'll either all have eaten one another or there'll be just one big hungry one, who will proceed to conquer the layer for itself.

Not if they are lorded over by a significantly powerful force - thats how the demon princes hold power in the first place. The Monarchs command Princes who command Lords who command Champions etc. Its a hierarchy built on strength and fear.

No, they're not, not when the war is between alignments rather than individuals. If demons win a battle against other outsiders, it's because their vision of chaotic evil is more prevalent and successful than the alternative take on alignments.

So a Barbazu has a chance against a dozen Balors if his vision of lawful evil is more powerful? Explain this to me please?

Russians might not have been as disciplined or as well-supplied as the Germans, but they weren't devouring one another or destroying their lessers with storms of fiendish energy purely for the pleasure of watching them sizzle either.

Neither would demons when confronted by a common enemy or a superior of significant power commanding them.

They weren't tanar'ri, which is why any analogy involving humans is going to fall short. We're not talking about humans! Chaos and evil turn on themselves and can't be controlled.

Yes they can be controlled. The strong bully the weak into doing their bidding.

They do this because it works for them. Not always, but if an army of Chaos doesn't use chaotic tactics they're going to lose, because Law certainly isn't their strength. At the same time, Chaos has inherent weaknesses, and it's the relative weaknesses and strengths of Chaos, and how well the tanar'ri tacticians and troops are attuned with it, that will determine victory.

Thats all very Moorcockian. But the individual demon princes certainly appear to have their own agendas.

I hope I'm not getting too mystical or abstract for anyone. Demons are "real" as much as anything in D&D is, but they exist on a different level of being. They're abstract concepts made incarnate, which is why they should be treated differently than a horde of orcs or ferrets or what have you. Things like troop numbers or breeding programs or the size of the various Abyssal layers isn't going to guarantee victory for them - only spreading Chaos and Evil more effectively than others can spread Law or Good.

Sufficient weight of numbers will guarantee victory unless the difference in power is astronomical. Demogorgon vs. a Million Barbazu for instance.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

Theres a very obvious reason. Security. If Demon Prince #A has perhaps a billion demons hes not going to want to spread them out over a solar system sized chunk of real estate when the army of Demon Prince #B could enter and take the forces piecemeal.

Actually, that's the opposite of what any lord who cares about security should do. If the demon deliberately leaves an infinity of territory in his layer unbound to his will, he has no way of controlling what goes on there. A rival lord could easily set up his own fiefdom right next door! Far safer to control the entire layer, so that he only has to worry about threats coming from other tiers of the Abyss. Only the stupidest or weakest of lords would use your solution, which is no solution at all, as having a relatively tiny realm hardly prevents demons from moving outside of it.

One thing Orcus can do to keep large numbers of troops in one place is to have large urban centers for them to visit - and this he has done, in the form of Lachrymosa and Naratyr. In these cities he provides them with constant sources of amusement and occupation. If he doesn't, there's little he can do to prevent them from moving into the wilds - other than slaughtering them, of course, but that's an option regardless.

I'm not changing it as much as I am defining it.

How so? When the 1e MMII specifically defines "prince" as one who rules at least one layer, and you say instead that the prince can only rule, at most, part of a layer, that looks like a change to me.

That hardly contradicts the points I raised though does it.

Of course it does. If the Abyss is hostile enough, immortality is irrelevant. There are many factors we have to invent here -

- How quickly do demons reproduce? (unknown)
- How quickly do they die due to violence? (unknown)
- How quickly do they die due to the hostile nature of their environment? (unknown)
- How quickly do they die of old age? (known)

You seem to assume that because one of these factors is known to be zero, this somehow proves that tanar'ri are capable of reproducing at a geometric rate. Pump up the numbers in the middle two factors and keep the number in the first low enough, and this isn't remotely true.

Are you telling me these infinite realms can't spare a thousand square miles?

No, that's not what I said. Not remotely.

Yet all the major demon princes have been living there for supposedly millenia and they are perfectly fine.

They're rather stronger than your average demon, aren't they? And there are innumerable princes who have been destroyed, either due to internecine warfare, invaders from other planes, or the terrible power of their own layers.

Not to mention the fact that we don't really have to stow them in the Abyss since many demon princes seemingly control prime material worlds (Lolth Q1) and/or kingdoms.

Q1 never said that Lolth controls those worlds - in fact, she clearly does not. Those are only the worlds in which she is known and worshipped, and therefore her realm contains portals leading to them.

It's not at all clear that demons are capable of reproducing their own kind outside the Abyss - the Abyss is the source of their power, after all, and without it they're nothing.

Not if they are lorded over by a significantly powerful force

They're beings of Chaos. There's only so much "lording" that can be done without cutting them off from that which empowers and defines them. You squeeze thousands of demons into a relatively small area and Golding's The Lord of the Flies will look like the Teletubbies.

Demon lords want to encourage Chaos, both among their own troops and across the planes. That's what they are. They can't and won't create order any more than a fire elemental will attempt to raise the sea levels, or any more than they would want to create Good - and if they do, it will weaken both their armies and themselves.

So a Barbazu has a chance against a dozen Balors if his vision of lawful evil is more powerful?

A barbazu's vision of its alignment is limited by its low rank - it grows stronger as the devil is refined in the flames of the Lake of Fire. Balors are comparatively far more ancient, and far closer to the true nature of their plane. That's why balors are stronger than barbazus are - because their understanding of their plane is stronger. If the barbazu comprehended its plane more than a dozen balors, it wouldn't be a barbazu anymore - it would be a baatezu noble.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

Q1 never said that Lolth controls those worlds - in fact, she clearly does not. Those are only the worlds in which she is known and worshipped, and therefore her realm contains portals leading to them.

Oh, my mistake. I checked the module, and indeed Lolth does control parts or all of many of these worlds, though not all - she's only allied with Vlad Tolenkov.

Anyway, I maintain that I don't think demons can properly breed outside of the Abyss, far from their source of power, or they wouldn't live primarily in their hostile homelands. Or perhaps the Material Plane just isn't as much fun.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey GC!

Not being ignorant, just pretty busy. I'll reply when I get the chance...likely tomorrow though.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Gey GC!

Actually, that's the opposite of what any lord who cares about security should do. If the demon deliberately leaves an infinity of territory in his layer unbound to his will, he has no way of controlling what goes on there.

Which makes another mockery of the idea that they control infinite territory - an impossibility unless you control an infinite number of troops - which we know for a fact that the demon princes don't.

A rival lord could easily set up his own fiefdom right next door! Far safer to control the entire layer, so that he only has to worry about threats coming from other tiers of the Abyss. Only the stupidest or weakest of lords would use your solution, which is no solution at all, as having a relatively tiny realm hardly prevents demons from moving outside of it.

Wrong.

Lets say Demon Prince #A control a planet sized area of a layer and a rival demon prince #B tries to set up a realm beyond the borders of the area directly outside #A's control. As soon as #B opens a gate or has troops planeshift in, #A can move troops to intercept. The problem for #B is that as soon as #A mobilses his forces, #B is going to be outnumbered.

Thats why demon wars don't happen on the Princes main layer(s) they happen in adjacent layers.

Lets try a second world war analogy.

Pazuzu = USA
Orcus = Great Britain
Graz'zt = Russia
Demogorgon = Germany
Fraz-Urb'luu = Japan
Zuggtmoy = Italy

Before Demogorgon can directly invade Orcus' territory he has to annex all the realms in between. Some demon princes will ally with Demogorgon, such as Zuggtmoy (Italy) and Mandrillagon (Austria), others will have to be taken the hard way, such as Baphomet (France). Small but powerful strike teams of mortal and demonic champions can perform bombing raids or acts of sabotage on Orcus home layer. But until his forces control the adjacent layers he cannot deploy his troops en masse for an invasion. So with the exception of strike teams, neither Demogorgon's nor Orcus' home territories will see any major battles. Instead most of the main battles will take place in the likes of Socothbenoth's realm (North Africa).

After initial successes, Demogorgon also allies with Fraz-Urb'luu and decides to attack Graz'zt as well.

One thing Orcus can do to keep large numbers of troops in one place is to have large urban centers for them to visit - and this he has done, in the form of Lachrymosa and Naratyr. In these cities he provides them with constant sources of amusement and occupation. If he doesn't, there's little he can do to prevent them from moving into the wilds - other than slaughtering them, of course, but that's an option regardless.

You don't need an infinite sized realm to possess multiple cities. Fraz-Urb'luu's realm encompasses more than half a dozen settlements (four cities, three towns) and is far from the largest of demon realms as we know.

How so? When the 1e MMII specifically defines "prince" as one who rules at least one layer, and you say instead that the prince can only rule, at most, part of a layer, that looks like a change to me.

Not depending on how you define the kosmically localised area, for all intents and purposes it is the whole layer. The idea represents the 'known world' if you will. There may be other demon realms but they have not been discovered by the demons we are familiar with because they are kosmically linked to a planet or planets that are unfamiliar to them.

Of course it does. If the Abyss is hostile enough, immortality is irrelevant. There are many factors we have to invent here -

- How quickly do demons reproduce? (unknown)

Well it takes 999 days for an ice devil to metamorphose into a pit fiend. You would imagine it would be less for weaker fiends and possibly tied into the numerology.

eg. Least Devils 9 days, Lesser Devils 99 days, Greater Devils 999 days.

Of course thats merely an educated guess, its possible demons could be 6/66/666 days by comparison. You would suspect that if

- How quickly do they die due to violence? (unknown)

The point I was making was that the realms of the major demon princes are fairly stable.

- How quickly do they die due to the hostile nature of their environment? (unknown)

Obviously demons congregate, for the most part, in settlements, its obvious that these settlements are not overtly hostile to natives. Thats not to say there won't be in-fighting, of course there will, but its not likely to get out of hand otherwise the demons in question will face the wrath of their immediate superiors.

- How quickly do they die of old age? (known)

You seem to assume that because one of these factors is known to be zero, this somehow proves that tanar'ri are capable of reproducing at a geometric rate. Pump up the numbers in the middle two factors and keep the number in the first low enough, and this isn't remotely true.

We know enough to know the Abyss isn't simply a meat grinder for the natives. The monarchs realms are stable enough, the settled areas are stable enough and they don't die of old age.

If they could breed, unless the gestation period was measured in decades it would be a very simple matter for any demon prince to have overwhelming forces within a relatively short period of time as demons measure it.

They're rather stronger than your average demon, aren't they? And there are innumerable princes who have been destroyed, either due to internecine warfare, invaders from other planes, or the terrible power of their own layers.

Obviously the more powerful the demon the less chance of it dying, no ones challenging that point.

Q1 never said that Lolth controls those worlds - in fact, she clearly does not. Those are only the worlds in which she is known and worshipped, and therefore her realm contains portals leading to them.

It's not at all clear that demons are capable of reproducing their own kind outside the Abyss - the Abyss is the source of their power, after all, and without it they're nothing...

...Oh, my mistake. I checked the module, and indeed Lolth does control parts or all of many of these worlds, though not all - she's only allied with Vlad Tolenkov.

Anyway, I maintain that I don't think demons can properly breed outside of the Abyss, far from their source of power, or they wouldn't live primarily in their hostile homelands. Or perhaps the Material Plane just isn't as much fun.

Either way, the point in no way affects the main crux of our debate. The main demon realms are stable enough. The main settlements are likewise relatively stable. The demons do not die of old age. As long as the breeding cycle is not measured in decades then the demon princes will be able to overwhelm the rest of the outer planes within a century...easily.

They're beings of Chaos.

Actually they are beings of Chaos AND Evil, not just chaos.

There's only so much "lording" that can be done without cutting them off from that which empowers and defines them. You squeeze thousands of demons into a relatively small area and Golding's The Lord of the Flies will look like the Teletubbies.

Demon lords want to encourage Chaos, both among their own troops and across the planes. That's what they are. They can't and won't create order any more than a fire elemental will attempt to raise the sea levels, or any more than they would want to create Good - and if they do, it will weaken both their armies and themselves.

I think you are glossing over the evil aspect inherant within them. The demon princes seek power, and what they can't control they destroy.

A barbazu's vision of its alignment is limited by its low rank - it grows stronger as the devil is refined in the flames of the Lake of Fire. Balors are comparatively far more ancient, and far closer to the true nature of their plane. That's why balors are stronger than barbazus are - because their understanding of their plane is stronger. If the barbazu comprehended its plane more than a dozen balors, it wouldn't be a barbazu anymore - it would be a baatezu noble.

So technically the war IS between individuals then - thank you.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

Which makes another mockery of the idea that they control infinite territory - an impossibility unless you control an infinite number of troops - which we know for a fact that the demon princes don't.

They control their territory because, in a sense, they are their territory - the prince and his layer are one. They are also two, and the wills of layer and regent may clash, but as long as the prince remains strong he can control the layer as a god would control a divine realm.

Do they control the actions of every creature in the layer? Of course not; nor would they want to. They're beings of Chaos.

Lets say Demon Prince #A control a planet sized area of a layer and a rival demon prince #B tries to set up a realm beyond the borders of the area directly outside #A's control. As soon as #B opens a gate or has troops planeshift in, #A can move troops to intercept.

Let's say #B sets up his realm a little (or a lot) further away - there's an infinity to work in, remember - and takes its time building up troops and resources. Now #A and #B both have an equal claim to the layer. #B then begins to march over. #A wishes it didn't live in the Krust-verse, and instead lived in a sensible multiverse where rulers of Abyssal layers actually got to rule Abyssal layers.

Before Demogorgon can directly invade Orcus' territory he has to annex all the realms in between.

Or Demogorgon can just open a portal directly between Gaping Maw and Thanatos, ignoring any other layers of the Abyss. Who says the two layers don't border one another, anyway, or (more likely) come in and out of conjunction over time?

For future reference, comparing Abyssal layers to arbitrary nations in the real world adds nothing to the clarity of your argument, but instead serves only to obfuscate your case.

all intents and purposes it is the whole layer. The idea represents the 'known world' if you will. There may be other demon realms but they have not been discovered by the demons we are familiar with because they are kosmically linked to a planet or planets that are unfamiliar to them.

...which represents another security hazard. Why not just let them rule their whole layers? The layer as a whole, not one relatively tiny realm minus any purely hypothetical other realms in the same layer somehow seperated by metaphysical gibberish from doing what comes naturally to the Abyss - rapacity and conquest.

Well it takes 999 days for an ice devil to metamorphose into a pit fiend.

1001 days, actually, and then only after 777 years of flawless service as a gelugon. And none of that has anything to do with demonic fertility rates.

but its not likely to get out of hand otherwise the demons in question will face the wrath of their immediate superiors.

I think, rather, their immediate superiors will be placing bets on who walks out alive.

The main demon realms are stable enough.

Where did you get this idea? And what is "stable?" If it's a place where demons aren't frequently destroyed by the landscape and one another, such a place doesn't exist in the Abyss. It's the Plane of Chaotic Evil, not the Plane of Stabilized Evil.

I think you are glossing over the evil aspect inherant within them. The demon princes seek power, and what they can't control they destroy.

I think you're glossing over the chaos, which is half of their nature.

Evil itself isn't about control, only about harming others in the name of self-interest. Chaos is antithetical to too much control. Do they seek power? Sure - that falls under self-interest. It's what they do with the power that seperates them from beings of Law - they don't seek to make their thralls any less violent or destructive. They don't seek to turn their minions into devils, which is what your plan is leaning toward. Or worse yet - you'd have them become mere cattle, livestock for their owners to breed - breed in stables, apparently. Any demons treated thus would be sickly and weak, distant indeed from that which makes them strong. Any lord who tried such a scheme would quickly be overcome by its rivals, who understand what sorts of acts the reality of the Abyss empowers.

In each plane, the "laws" of nature are different, each encouraging that plane's ethos. In the Abyss, Chaos is rewarded and all order crumbles and suffers.

For a demon horde to become strong, its members must be encouraged to cultivate their individual urges and will - this is the strength of Chaos. If they are to breed, they must do it in passion, according to their whims, not some centralized command. And, of course, violently - one mate or the other probably often dies, further reducing the population. This is what empowers the layer as a whole, and only empowering the layer as a whole can the layer spawn armies stronger as a whole than those they fight against.

You could argue, in fact, that sexual reproduction makes demons less populous than otherwise, but this only makes them stronger as individuals.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

Or Demogorgon can just open a portal directly between Gaping Maw and Thanatos, ignoring any other layers of the Abyss.

Reviewing the limitations of the Gate spell, it seems Orcus can prevent such magicks from operating within his "personal demesnes" - it's arguable whether this refers to only his palace in Naratyr, to his capital cities of Naratyr and Lachymosa, or his entire layer. If it's the last, there's no way Demogorgon can use Gate to invade Thanatos directly - and it would be reasonable to limit even higher-level spells in a like manner. Epic magic or portals could of course avoid the limited duration.

It is, of course, possible that natural portals exist connecting Gaping Maw and Thanatos, but that's up the discretion of the individual DM.

In a campaign where there are great (even infinite) expanses of Thanatos uncontrolled by Orcus, there's nothing hindering Demogorgon's advance at all - he simply opens his portal in secret, outside the radius in which Orcus can sense such things, and he gets his entire army through before the Goat is any the wiser. Or, more subtly, he helps encourage the rise to power of some other demon or undead thing native to Thanatos to distract his foe.

If Demogorgon doesn't wish to use a portal, and Thanatos and Gaping Maw are not connected directly, how many layers are there between them?

Just one - the Plain of Infinite Portals, which has massive natural (I'd argue nonmagical) portals connecting both layers - and this is borne out in all editions of the game. The Plain of Portals is, the majority of the time, going to be the single layer in between any two layers of the Abyss. And this Plain isn't ruled by any single prince, eliminating the need for alliances.

The confusion comes probably from the assumption that the numbers assigned to the various Abyssal layers has any intrinsic meaning. In fact, objectively, most layers are the "second" layer of the Abyss, as they are directly connected to the first - and possibly others as well. This is true for all the best-known ones, anyway, except Sess'inek's, whose portals have all been sealed shut (although a major force like Demogorgon could in theory break those seals). There are other layers that have been sealed off as well, either by their inhabitants or would-be jailers, but the greatest regents are all connected to the Plain of Infinite Portals - this allows them to better increase their power.

Other likely nexus layers include the Grand Abyss (catalogued as the fifth) and Durao (numbered #274).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey GC!

They control their territory because, in a sense, they are their territory - the prince and his layer are one. They are also two, and the wills of layer and regent may clash, but as long as the prince remains strong he can control the layer as a god would control a divine realm.

I agree with this, what I disagree with is that their realms are literally infinite. Even if they were linked to the entire layer it would take infinite intelligence to be able to process the infinite occurances taking place within an infinite space.

We know that divine realms are not infinite by any means (though we both agree they should be larger than they are in D&Dg).

Do they control the actions of every creature in the layer? Of course not; nor would they want to. They're beings of Chaos.

Our discussion indirectly applies to all planar rulers, not just demons.

Your point makes little sense anyway. Mephistopheles doesn't control the actions of everyone in his layer either, but he commands them.

Let's say #B sets up his realm a little (or a lot) further away - there's an infinity to work in, remember

Not quite. There is nothing beyond the known parameters of the kosmically localised area. Imagine being on the shore and looking out to the sea, you can still see the horizon but you cannot reach it.

- and takes its time building up troops and resources. Now #A and #B both have an equal claim to the layer. #B then begins to march over.

As soon as #B sets foot on the layer, #A knows about it.

#A wishes it didn't live in the Krust-verse, and instead lived in a sensible multiverse where rulers of Abyssal layers actually got to rule Abyssal layers.

I don't see how infinity is a sensible number.

...Krust-verse...I like the sound of that though.

Or Demogorgon can just open a portal directly between Gaping Maw and Thanatos, ignoring any other layers of the Abyss. Who says the two layers don't border one another, anyway, or (more likely) come in and out of conjunction over time?

Obviously the more powerful rulers hold sway over multiple layers with their main seat of power at the centre.

Trying to keep a portal open while you ferry in your entire army is ludicrous. For starters the enemy will be able to intercept in far larger numbers. It will take ages for you to get substantial forces through the gate. The enemy will have plenty of time to disrupt/dispel the gate.

For future reference, comparing Abyssal layers to arbitrary nations in the real world adds nothing to the clarity of your argument, but instead serves only to obfuscate your case.

I thought it illustrated the point quite well. To reiterate, the primary layer(s) of the greatest demon monarchs/princes will almost certainly never be threatened by enemy armies EXACTLY LIKE the second world war.

...which represents another security hazard. Why not just let them rule their whole layers? The layer as a whole, not one relatively tiny realm minus any purely hypothetical other realms in the same layer somehow seperated by metaphysical gibberish from doing what comes naturally to the Abyss - rapacity and conquest.

Ruling an infinite layer means they have infinite resources and infinite power.

1001 days, actually, and then only after 777 years of flawless service as a gelugon. And none of that has anything to do with demonic fertility rates.

Its the closest approximation we know.

I think, rather, their immediate superiors will be placing bets on who walks out alive.

Unless the superiors, superiors are also there.

Where did you get this idea? And what is "stable?" If it's a place where demons aren't frequently destroyed by the landscape and one another, such a place doesn't exist in the Abyss. It's the Plane of Chaotic Evil, not the Plane of Stabilized Evil.

Thats exactly the point though - its a matter of frequency. Some planes are so violent that demons are few and far between if any exist there at all, but demons are not going to settle in such areas. They may be chaotic evil, but they are not, as a rule, stupid.

I think you're glossing over the chaos, which is half of their nature.

Evil itself isn't about control, only about harming others in the name of self-interest. Chaos is antithetical to too much control. Do they seek power? Sure - that falls under self-interest. It's what they do with the power that seperates them from beings of Law - they don't seek to make their thralls any less violent or destructive. They don't seek to turn their minions into devils, which is what your plan is leaning toward. Or worse yet - you'd have them become mere cattle, livestock for their owners to breed - breed in stables, apparently. Any demons treated thus would be sickly and weak, distant indeed from that which makes them strong. Any lord who tried such a scheme would quickly be overcome by its rivals, who understand what sorts of acts the reality of the Abyss empowers.

Or, to use some of your own vernacular perhaps these great breeding pools are cess pits of debauchery and lust, fueling the demons primitive, carnal urges.

However the whole law/chaos thing is irrelevant here with regards what we are discussing. The demon princes do not have infinte power, they do not have infinite resources, therefore even if their layers are infinite they can neither understand everything within them (because they do not have infinite intelligence), nor do their forces occupy anything more than a finite area.

In each plane, the "laws" of nature are different, each encouraging that plane's ethos. In the Abyss, Chaos is rewarded and all order crumbles and suffers.

Absolutely.

For a demon horde to become strong, its members must be encouraged to cultivate their individual urges and will - this is the strength of Chaos. If they are to breed, they must do it in passion, according to their whims, not some centralized command. And, of course, violently - one mate or the other probably often dies, further reducing the population. This is what empowers the layer as a whole, and only empowering the layer as a whole can the layer spawn armies stronger as a whole than those they fight against.

If one dies then thats okay, as long as there is no net gain.

You could argue, in fact, that sexual reproduction makes demons less populous than otherwise, but this only makes them stronger as individuals.

I'm happy enough with that. I keep telling you my problem is not with the breeding per se, its in representing infinity.