Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Shemmy!

Then read 'Faces of Evil' because it's flat out stated in there. Would you like the page number? IIRC there's a few other direct references to the idea as well outside of that source.

Its a terrible idea. What happens if multiple lords all control a piece of the layer, does the infinite intelligence share itself between them? Does it have a favourite?

According to the Tanar'ri it is. See aforementioned source.

[sarcasm]I'm straight on to ebay after this to pick me up a copy![/sarcasm]

No, not really. I haven't seen Grover/Rip make anything up really this whole 'debate', just instances where you're not as familiar with the sources he's pulling ideas from, or instances where you just don't agree with his take on a topic.

Actually I was being facetious, OBVIOUSLY that sort of baboonery could only come from Planescape...hence my smilie. No offence meant GC dude.

Except that they have been before depending on the circumstances and where any such deific vs abyssal lord conflict would have taken place. 3.x, with its (albeit lamentable) stance on giving true deities stats, has just taken the opposite stance apparently in order to make archfiends viable targets for PCs. The stance on this has varied between editions and even within editions, but I'll end there because we're already discussed this elsewhere, and I'd rather not revisit that exercise in futility.

Okay, so let me just see if I can bring this to the nub of the matter.

The whole infinite realm idea doesn't work when you have stats for gods because then you have to explain the unexplainable. So it worked in 2nd Ed. and doesn't work in 3rd Ed. Fair enough...?

He never said that, read his original comment more closely. He was simply saying that even if Orcus could, he would have no desire to do so given his chaotic nature.

Then he raised a totally irrelevant point.

It's the outer planes, not everything makes sense, nor should it. Not everything is or even should be, nailed down and precisely defined in easy to understand terms. Even if you don't like it, that's the way it is, and that's the way they have been defined as for quite a long time. The realms of the Abyssal Lords are in fact infinite if they manage to exert their control over the entirety of their chosen layer, Graz'zt has three of them under his sway for instance.

The problem inherant in your thinking is that if he rules an infinite area then he must have infinite demons. But a demon lord rules a finite area with a finite number of demons. Its a totally crazy and illogical viewpoint. Its okay to wax lyrical or philosophise about something such as that, but you can't design for it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Shemmy mate!

Wasn't getting your fingers burnt on this point once, enough?

Kosmic may be a word, but kosmically doesn't appear to be.

There's only 184 google hits for the word, which is over an order of magnitude less than I get by googling my own screen name. Now google isn't a proper research tool, but one would think that if it was an actual word it would show up a wee bit more across the net.

So an obscure occult word (and the word occult by its very definition means 'hidden things') has to actually be well known by your reckoning!

And I'm running the planes of DnD rather than the Wonderful World of Helena Blavatsky, no offense to said kooky immigrant keen on theosophy.

No ones asking you to knife a goat.

Not to mention you have already (wrongly) accused me of making up the word kosmically anyway! So its hypocritical of you to berate me for my supposed invention and in the same breath, be so irate at the thought of occult references slipping into your game (which D&D is already littered with at any rate).

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

What happens if multiple lords all control a piece of the layer, does the infinite intelligence share itself between them?

The layer doesn't bond with anyone until there is a single unquestioned leader. If you want to put it in game terms, each candidate rolls a Charisma check against the layer's Wisdom. The first candidate who succeeds bonds with the layer. Anyone who fails rolls a Will save or the layer devours it and adds another +1 bonus to its Wisdom score. Anyone who wishes to take the layer away from its prince has to prove its superiority, and then make the Charisma check.

The whole infinite realm idea doesn't work when you have stats for gods because then you have to explain the unexplainable.

I think I explained it quite well.

Then he raised a totally irrelevant point.

What I said was that neither Orcus nor Mephistopheles has absolute control over the inhabitants of their layers, but Mephistopheles would, as a LE being, be more likely to desire such control. The point was to illustrate the differences between the CE and LE approaches to rulership. CE beings permit their underlings a certain amount of freedom because it empowers them.

The problem inherant in your thinking is that if he rules an infinite area then he must have infinite demons.

That doesn't follow. Again, your grasp on logic is haphazard at best. If the amount of demons begins with a finite number, it will always be a finite number no matter how quickly they reproduce, and in any case an Abyssal lord will only be able to muster a finite number of troops in an army at any one time.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

The qlippoth name was appropriated in exactly this context. I felt that the Abyss could use a "proto-demon" race (if only to bring it in line with the Gord books), and while casting about for a good name I came upon the qlippoth and the rest is small publishing history.

I thought it was a pretty good name, actually, evoking the idea of a primal cosmic evil and also the concept of hollow shells (which always made me think "Qlippoth" would have been a good name for Carceri). You have to ignore a lot of its qabbalistic connotations, but it's pretty decent. I liked Armies of the Abyss - my only problem with it was that a few of the demon lords were a little too close to their occult counterparts, where interpreting them slightly more loosely might have made them more interesting. But then, their entries were pretty short, and they can always be expanded. The book's a good start, anyway.

 

[Shemeska]

Hello again Shemmy mate!

Wasn't getting your fingers burnt on this point once, enough?

*shrug* The last time I somehow got into a discussion with you it ended up as a sprawling, 13 page abomination over on WotC in which I largely got nothing out of it except learning that I was 'Infringing upon your rights'. And as amusing as that whole affair was, I don't care to repeat the experience.

I'm back on topic for the rest of this thread as it might apply so I can be productive as opposed to getting sucked into pointless arguments.

 

[BOZ]

Its a terrible idea. What happens if multiple lords all control a piece of the layer, does the infinite intelligence share itself between them? Does it have a favourite?

good question. the recent Zuggtmoy article says that Juibby and Zuggy basically each take one half of their layer.

 

[Shemeska]

good question. the recent Zuggtmoy article says that Juibby and Zuggy basically each take one half of their layer.

Given the relationship between an Abyssal Lord and their layer of the Abyss, it's probably a safe assumption that the layer, in that capacity, isn't beholden to either of them, and they can each only draw a certain level of power from it, rather than the full capacity of a Lord ruling over and in symbiosis with an entire layer.

It's not something that I would honestly apply game mechanics to, simply because it deals with infinite concepts that you can't nail down and define in that way. It doesn't entirely make sense, and it's not supposed to, yet it's still there in the roiling, malignant chaos of the Abyss.

 

[Hammerhead]

Does having an infinite layer of the Abyss really make any less sense than an infinite universe?

 

[Nightfall]

*wonders why his two favorite mates, Shemmy and Krusty, just can't accept that Scarred Lands Cosmology rocks.*

Okay maybe not...

 

[Ripzerai]

good question. the recent Zuggtmoy article says that Juibby and Zuggy basically each take one half of their layer.

Then neither truly rules it. Shedaklah does not answer to them, and they have no control over its planar traits. If neither controls any layers other than Shedaklah, they're not true Abyssal rulers (though they're still very powerful).

It does seem like they have more control over their portions of the layer than can be easily explained by merely importing ooze and fungi into the layer. Perhaps Shedaklah does respond to its two tenants' whims, at least somewhat.

James Jacobs' interpretation of their relationship was a little different from what I had assumed in previous editions - before, I thought it was a matter of Juiblex ruling the layer and allowing Zuggtmoy to dwell there while she rebuilt her power after her imprisonment (since she had her own seperate layer in 1st edition). From the Dragon article, it seems Juiblex might even be an invader from another layer, though it could also be that they've long shared the layer and Juiblex only took advantage of Zuggtmoy's recent troubles to take more than his former share.