Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

[BOZ]

name change, Grover?

It's not something that I would honestly apply game mechanics to, simply because it deals with infinite concepts that you can't nail down and define in that way. It doesn't entirely make sense, and it's not supposed to, yet it's still there in the roiling, malignant chaos of the Abyss.

thank you. applying mathematics to infinites makes my head hurt really badly.

 

[BOZ]

It does seem like they have more control over their portions of the layer than can be easily explained by merely importing ooze and fungi into the layer. Perhaps Shedaklah does respond to its two tenants' whims, at least somewhat.

i have to assume, at least somewhat. it can't be an all-or-nothing prospect. if you have to share, then you get less for yourself, but lacking total control should not mean being SOL.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey GC!

I wanted to give Erik and James time to read the new topics that Shemmy, BOZ, and others introduced. It seemed common courtesy not to monopolize the thread.

Fair enough.

When the thread fell into disuse and BOZ was bumping it, it seemed like I could finally give in to temptation.

Given that you are now answering Shemeskas posts I assume this isn't your last temptation.

I'll also tell you in advance - eventually I'm going to abruptly stop arguing with you and it'll be forever, since otherwise we're going to be arguing forever.

Well you could always see sense and start agreeing with me.

Hopefully, this will be when we at least understand one another's views, even if we don't agree with them.

I understand your views, I just don't see the practicality of them. Just as 2nd Edition/Planescape had no practical benefit for epic or immortal games.

I thought I understood what you were saying before, but then you unleashed the whole "rival lords can't perceive the terrain outside a rival's realm" bombshell, which changes everything.

Its a fairly simple idea. Each prime material world has its own corresponding (kosmically localised) planar area. The demon lords of one world are not the same demon lords of another. So sages of Greyhawk will know about Demogorgon, Orcus and so forth, but they may not be known on Athas. The localised area of each layer is about the same size as the corresponding planets surface, laid flat. Beyond this area simply does not exist for the inhabitants of the layer. It could be a gaping void, impenetrable blackness, a forcefield, a dense mist, a horizon that can never be reached, etc. preventing them from going further.

However, if the inhabitants of one prime material world are introduced to another, then their cosmologies also expand and become aware of the other. The more worlds that are introduced keep expanding the kosmically localised areas.

They rule vastly bigger expanses of terrain than deities do, and this has always been the case. Controlling a layer of the Abyss is a bigger deal than controlling a realm in the Abyss. By rigidly giving Orcus no more power than a lesser deity - even in his role as ruler of Thanatos - you've severely nerfed him from his status even in 1st edition.

Wrong. By making him a Lesser Deity I hold true to the original spirit of the character.

Planescape did give planar lords a substantial boost in power - particularly in Colin McComb's article "The Lords of the Nine" in Dragon #223 - revealing that they can hold their own against even greater deities.

Irrelevant information given there were no deity stats in 2nd Edition. Which of course was then contradicted when Planescape published stats for Graz'zt which made him incredibly feeble by comparison to the practically infinite power of 2nd Edition deities.

This is how it should be.

I disagree.

If Demogorgon - the prince of demonkind - can get his tail kicked by Clangaddin or Erythnul, something is severely wrong.

Those deities would have, at best, an even chance of defeating Demogorgon in his home realm.

The whole cosmology comes into doubt - how has Demogorgon survived more than a few centuries? Why hasn't an intermediate or greater god taken control of his layer?

This sort of logical argument works with WotC's interpretations of quasi-deity powered demon lords, but it doesn't wash with mine.

This was objectively broken in 1st edition, fixed in Planescape, and then broken again in 3rd edition.

Utter rubbish. 1st Edition was not broken at all. 2nd Edition/Planescape made deities irrelevant. 3rd Edition did the right thing in bringing back the stats but was flawed in that it created the parameters for deities but then reduced the demon lords so that they could arbitrarily be manhandled by powerful (but non-epic) mortals.

That seems far too convenient, but okay. I don't like your "virtual terrain" premise - an infinite expanse which exists but cannot be entered or perceived - but it makes your argument at least self-consistent.

It does mean that you can't object to me making things up out of whole cloth - which I haven't done, but which I now have every right to do.

I'm all for hearing ideas if they make sense and add something to the game (the infinite realm approach throws up more anomalies than its worth and adds nothing but confusion).

There's no reasonable parallel between refining a gelugon and dretch pregnancies. They're just not remotely similar. Terrible, terrible logic.

I fail to see how you can honestly say they are not remotely similar. Is a caterpillar to butterfly metamorphosis not remotely like a re-birth?

Figuring out how often tanar'ri reproduce involves a lot more than gestation rates, in any case. We have to figure out how often they're fertile, how long it takes for them to mature, how big their litters are, and what the mortality rate is during the mating and birthing process. You should know this.

For what it's worth, I think the answers are:
Gestation: About the same as slaadi.
Fertility: all the time
Maturity: from birth
Litters: Variable
Mortality: Extremely high. Which is to say, a male and female mate - the male dies. The female gives birth - her young eat their way out of her chest, and she dies. Most of the young are promptly eaten, either by demons, terrain features, or - if she's not dead - the mother. They still reproduce at a frightening rate and it doesn't matter because belief is power, not numbers.

I could just as easily plug in other numbers, though, so it might easily take millennia for a demonic population to double through sexual reproduction alone, or there might not be any increase at all.

Or its possible they can't breed at all.

I think mortality rates will be lower with more powerful demons, who have other than bestial intelligence, but I don't think it's reasonable to have demon lords breeding their underlings like cattle. That's not what demons are about. If demons are truly creatures of chaos as much as they're creatures of evil, the sexual reproduction idea works. And that's what it's designed for - the idea that they can reproduce with mortals but not one another is the kind of restriction that makes sense in a lawful culture, which has the ability to control its members forms and the desire to keep them "pure," but not in a chaotic one where tanar'ri mutate and evolve on their own.

So basically, what you are saying is that Asmodeus could have breeding grounds, but the Abyssal Lords cannot? If so, then the devils, with their strict breeding programs would easily win the Blood War within a relatively short space of time.

The whole idea of them breeding is preposterous in itself. But if they can breed, then all the other outsiders can breed, and the one who breeds the most is going to dominate the rest.

That's not to say that Graz'zt has no control over his minions at all - that's not what I'm trying to say at all. He can herd them in a general direction and expect them to more or less go there. He can expect them to cause a lot of chaos and destruction once they get where they're going, too - that's what they are. He can't expect them to run a nursery without eating the babies - it's like getting foxes to run a henhouse. That's not what demons are good for.

I think his control is a bit better than 'herding them in the right direction'. If it wasn't, then nothing would ever get done in the Abyss.

All of the Abyss is overtly hazardous to them. It's more hazardous to mortals, but it's hazardous for everyone.

I disagree. How is Orcus city, for example, overtly hazardous?

Of course they do, and there is. That's not to say it's constant internecine warfare everywhere, but you can't assume that any place is "safe."

Well I wouldn't necessarily say Iraq is safe in the current climate, but I suspect the births far exceed the violent deaths.

Even if there wasn't precedent for the idea of demons butchering one another - and there is - you can't say anything as long as you stand by your "layers that are there but not there" argument, or for that matter your whole "Abyssal princes only rule finite realms" argument, both of which are without precedent in published material.

Well thats the point though. There is a lack of precedents on both sides. Its up to the people who want practical rules at these power levels to adopt something that works for them, not bewilder them with sophistry.

I have a fairly large occult library and access to several larger ones. One thing I've noticed is that occultists like to give things krazy spellings for no particular reason, like Aleister Crowley insisting on spelling "magic" with a K. Spelling "cosmos" with K makes it look more Greek, but does it really change its meaning?

Kosmos refers to the combined material and spiritual universes, as opposed to cosmos which only refers to the material universe.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey GC!

The layer doesn't bond with anyone until there is a single unquestioned leader. If you want to put it in game terms, each candidate rolls a Charisma check against the layer's Wisdom. The first candidate who succeeds bonds with the layer. Anyone who fails rolls a Will save or the layer devours it and adds another +1 bonus to its Wisdom score. Anyone who wishes to take the layer away from its prince has to prove its superiority, and then make the Charisma check.

Well then how come deities control their realms (even though they don't necessarily encompass whole layers)?

That doesn't follow. Again, your grasp on logic is haphazard at best. If the amount of demons begins with a finite number, it will always be a finite number no matter how quickly they reproduce, and in any case an Abyssal lord will only be able to muster a finite number of troops in an army at any one time.

So then what you are saying is that each demon prince realm (the occupied portion of it) is finite anyway! There is no practical benefit to controlling the region outside this area. How is that any different to what I suggest with the kosmically localised areas?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Shemmy!

*shrug* The last time I somehow got into a discussion with you it ended up as a sprawling, 13 page abomination over on WotC

I seem to recall you ducked out after a few pages and left things to Rip and myself.

in which I largely got nothing out of it except learning that I was 'Infringing upon your rights'.

Well, basically what you were saying was there should be no stats for gods simply because you don't want them. Which is tantamount to telling people they can't have Psionics or Eberron, unless you want them.

And as amusing as that whole affair was, I don't care to repeat the experience.

Well then don't make silly comments like "there should be no stats for gods" or "I want to hear more made up words like kosmically".

I'm back on topic for the rest of this thread as it might apply so I can be productive as opposed to getting sucked into pointless arguments.

Glad to hear it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Hammerhead!

Does having an infinite layer of the Abyss really make any less sense than an infinite universe?

The difference lies in resources and control of the area.

If you control an infinite number of demons then just hide behind them and no one can ever defeat you, nor could anyone ever take your layer away from you, a single battle could last eternity.

 

[Ripzerai]

Its [Kosmic Localization] a fairly simple idea.

It seems unnecessarily complex to me, but I guess tastes vary.

By making him a Lesser Deity I hold true to the original spirit of the character.

The original spirit of the character had him as a non-deity who ruled an entire layer of the Abyss. By making him a lesser deity you hold true the the later, post-Deities & Demigods spirit of the character. Both incarnations were broken, in that a lesser deity isn't reasonably going to be one of the three greatest rulers of the Abyss in a multiverse where greater deities and beings of still greater power exist.

Irrelevant information given there were no deity stats in 2nd Edition. Which of course was then contradicted when Planescape published stats for Graz'zt which made him incredibly feeble by comparison to the practically infinite power of 2nd Edition deities.

That was broken too, but Planescape later fixed that by implying that planar lords had powers that allowed them to shrink and move the realms of even the gods - albeit slowly - by will alone. It would have been more fixed if this was stated explicitly, but as this is what Levistus is doing, it's fairly clear. And honestly, not statting the deities was something of a fix at well.

And there's plenty of ways to express power level without formal stats, so it's hardly irrelevant. Use your imagination, for God's sake.

This sort of logical argument works with WotC's interpretations of quasi-deity powered demon lords, but it doesn't wash with mine.

I'm sure Demogorgon lasts a lot longer as a lesser deity, but he's still very weak compared to your intermediates, greaters, Old Ones, and so on, and he was weak compared to greater gods in 1st edition, too. Maybe they wouldn't win every competition, depending on how the dice went, but they'd kill Demogorgon more times than not.

That's just bad game design.

the infinite realm approach throws up more anomalies than its worth and adds nothing but confusion).

I feel the same way about "kosmic localization." I think it's the sort of idea that only its creator can truly get into - it doesn't do anything but arbitrarily limit the multiverse to solve "problems" that don't exist.

I fail to see how you can honestly say they are not remotely similar. Is a caterpillar to butterfly metamorphosis not remotely like a re-birth?

Rather, the process of baatezu advancement isn't remotely like butterfly metamorphosis, and baatezu never experience birth at all. It's most like the process of refining and engraving steel weapons - no biological analogy is appropriate. Higher-caste baatezu physically subject their subject to flames capable of melting basic spiritual essence, and kocrachons physically carve additional sigils in the baatezu's soul. It's a very industrial process, and it bears no similarity to birth except in the sense that the baatezu begins a new existence after it's finally done.

Or its possible they can't breed at all.

We know that tanar'ri can breed from the Monster Manual. If they can breed with others, why can't they breed with one another? Faces of Evil explained that baatezu females were sterile, but that tanar'ri and yugoloths had no problems successfully breeding. That nicely illustrates the different approaches of Law and Chaos - baatezu design the inability to breed into their species in order to eliminate nepotism and force every member of their species to go through the same trials from lemure status on, thus creating a uniformity that their nature appreciates. Tanar'ri leave it up to the individual and the whims of the nalfeshnee where the stock of their next generation will come from, and trust in the hostility of their plane to weed out weaklings. Yugoloths prefer to teach each of their kind the same lessons from mezzoloth on, but leave sex as an option because they appreciate chaotic tactics as much as lawful ones. It's a powerful, elegant design.

Abstract ideals are the real trump card. Outer planar outsiders live or die based on the alignments they personify. Agricultural breeding doesn't strengthen outsiders of chaos - it weakens them. Adding order to the species weakens them in hit dice, morale, intelligence, and even numbers. The more they try to farm themselves, the fewer and weaker they become. The wilder they are, the stronger and more numerous they become. It's all tied to their behavior and the behavior they induce in others, and their precise reproductive mechanics are not relevant. Tanar'ri are far more numerous, but they fight among themselves and are poorly organized. Baatezu are less numerous, but they're more focused and coordinated. The two balance one another out precisely: tanar'ri have exactly as many numbers as it takes to overcome their organizational handicap. The individual layers of the Abyss have exactly the strength and numbers proportional to the influence of that layer's ideals. All outsiders precisely represent the strengths and weaknesses of their respective alignments, and if some detail about the system as it's presently structured were to change, their counterparts would change as well until it was balanced again. For example, if the baatezu started breeding themselves in endless kennels, the tanar'ri would begin emerging spontaneously from their plane in greater numbers to balance it.

The only way for one Abyssal ruler to gain a numerical advantage over another or for one planar race to gain a real advantage over another is by shifting the dominance of the ideals they represent. If devilkind inspires more corruptive Law over the worlds, they'll gain more souls and more power and the forces of Chaos and Good won't be able to compete. If the eladrins, chaotic devas, and asuras inspire more happy freedom, they'll increase in power and the forces of despotism will wither. That's why outsiders care about the Material Plane.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Rip!

It seems unnecessarily complex to me, but I guess tastes vary.

Thats exactly right, tastes do vary.

The original spirit of the character had him as a non-deity who ruled an entire layer of the Abyss. By making him a lesser deity you hold true the the later, post-Deities & Demigods spirit of the character.

The (1st Ed.) Monster Manual never said he wasn't a deity. Obviously there was no point referencing the matter unless you are going to explain it further, for which the Monster Manual was inappropriate.

Both incarnations were broken, in that a lesser deity isn't reasonably going to be one of the three greatest rulers of the Abyss

Actually, according to (1st Ed.) Manual of the Planes there were no Greater Powers (or Intermediate Powers) dwelling in the Abyss because they would constantly have to contend with the demons.

As we can see from reading the Gord the Rogue books, in the face of an outside threat, the demons will grudgingly band together to combat and expel the interloper (a facet of their inherantly racist nature). So while a greater deity of evil might be able to defeat one demon prince (even with its home plane advantage), it would not be able to defeat the combined power of the Abyss which would rise against them.

in a multiverse where greater deities and beings of still greater power exist.

No greater deity is going to defeat the combined forces of the Abyss in their home plane (unless we assign quasi-deity power to the most powerful demon princes).

That was broken too, but Planescape later fixed that by implying that planar lords had powers that allowed them to shrink and move the realms of even the gods - albeit slowly - by will alone.

What good is that going to do them when they are dead at the hands of their near-omnipotent divine adversary. Any intelligent deity (which is funny because they are all virtually omniscient in 2nd Ed.) is going to either destroy or otherwise expel the current ruler and then make their realm on his layer.

It would have been more fixed if this was stated explicitly, but as this is what Levistus is doing, it's fairly clear.

What the heck was the point of them talking about 2nd Edition deities in that sort of physical capacity anyway - it was all a bunch of arbitrary nonsense.

And honestly, not statting the deities was something of a fix at well.

On the contrary the omission of stats was akin to spitting in the faces of epic/immortal gamers.

And there's plenty of ways to express power level without formal stats, so it's hardly irrelevant. Use your imagination, for God's sake.

There are plenty of ways to roleplay without formal stats, but thats not the point.

The point is that there are many campaigns out there who want to use deities in a physical capacity, and its bordering on a disgrace that you and your cohorts continually whine, hiss and moan about the matter. No one is forcing you to buy the likes of Deities & Demigods.

Your usual lame response is "well WotC should be spending their resources in other areas." But who the hell died and made you the Fuhrer of roleplaying that you can dictate how other people should and shouldn't game.

The idea of begrudging someone else their joy (whether that be in the form of a book about Deities, Eberron, Psionics or whatever else) is just the very definition of a spiteful 'hater'.

I'm not against some book that delves into religions without including the stats (I own the Book of the Righteous for one), it may not be my preference I don't throw a hissy fit at the first suggestion of such a book.

I'm sure Demogorgon lasts a lot longer as a lesser deity, but he's still very weak compared to your intermediates,

On his home plane he could personally hold his own against intermediate opposition, factor in all his major servants and its unlikely he would be defeated by such a threat.

greaters, Old Ones, and so on,

But so what that he is weaker than an Overgod. He doesn't have to continually contest with them! Thats like saying someones 1st-level PC is a lot weaker than Orcus - well whoop de doo! What a revelation!

and he was weak compared to greater gods in 1st edition, too. Maybe they wouldn't win every competition, depending on how the dice went, but they'd kill Demogorgon more times than not.

So, just to clarify, why do these pantheon heads have a beef with Demogorgon again?

That's just bad game design.

Not at all.

I feel the same way about "kosmic localization." I think it's the sort of idea that only its creator can truly get into - it doesn't do anything but arbitrarily limit the multiverse to solve "problems" that don't exist.

Theres nothing arbitrary about it. It links the outer planes directly to each prime material world, because its the dead spirits of that particular world who become demons, devils etc. in the first place.

Rather, the process of baatezu advancement isn't remotely like butterfly metamorphosis,

So what if the actual process isn't exactly the same, the outcome is inherantly familiar!

and baatezu never experience birth at all.

Unlike demons then...supposedly! Do I reference Durzugons now or later?

It's most like the process of refining and engraving steel weapons - no biological analogy is appropriate. Higher-caste baatezu physically subject their subject to flames capable of melting basic spiritual essence, and kocrachons physically carve additional sigils in the baatezu's soul. It's a very industrial process, and it bears no similarity to birth except in the sense that the baatezu begins a new existence after it's finally done.

So you wouldn't describe it as a 'metamorphosis' at all then?

We know that tanar'ri can breed from the Monster Manual. If they can breed with others, why can't they breed with one another?

Did somebody hear the word Durzugon just mentioned?

Faces of Evil explained that baatezu females were sterile, but that tanar'ri and yugoloths had no problems successfully breeding. That nicely illustrates the different approaches of Law and Chaos - baatezu design the inability to breed into their species in order to eliminate nepotism and force every member of their species to go through the same trials from lemure status on, thus creating a uniformity that their nature appreciates. Tanar'ri leave it up to the individual and the whims of the nalfeshnee where the stock of their next generation will come from, and trust in the hostility of their plane to weed out weaklings. Yugoloths prefer to teach each of their kind the same lessons from mezzoloth on, but leave sex as an option because they appreciate chaotic tactics as much as lawful ones. It's a powerful, elegant design.

Even though the breeding idea galls me personally, it has negligable significance to our discussion unless it can be exploited by the planar rulers, which you have stated it cannot.

Abstract ideals are the real trump card. Outer planar outsiders live or die based on the alignments they personify. Agricultural breeding doesn't strengthen outsiders of chaos - it weakens them.

It could be the products of a continual mass orgy.

Adding order to the species weakens them in hit dice, morale, intelligence, and even numbers. The more they try to farm themselves, the fewer and weaker they become. The wilder they are, the stronger and more numerous they become. It's all tied to their behavior and the behavior they induce in others, and their precise reproductive mechanics are not relevant. Tanar'ri are far more numerous, but they fight among themselves and are poorly organized. Baatezu are less numerous, but they're more focused and coordinated. The two balance one another out precisely: tanar'ri have exactly as many numbers as it takes to overcome their organizational handicap. The individual layers of the Abyss have exactly the strength and numbers proportional to the influence of that layer's ideals. All outsiders precisely represent the strengths and weaknesses of their respective alignments, and if some detail about the system as it's presently structured were to change, their counterparts would change as well until it was balanced again. For example, if the baatezu started breeding themselves in endless kennels, the tanar'ri would begin emerging spontaneously from their plane in greater numbers to balance it.

So are you saying now that universal balance cannot be upset?

The only way for one Abyssal ruler to gain a numerical advantage over another or for one planar race to gain a real advantage over another is by shifting the dominance of the ideals they represent. If devilkind inspires more corruptive Law over the worlds, they'll gain more souls and more power and the forces of Chaos and Good won't be able to compete. If the eladrins, chaotic devas, and asuras inspire more happy freedom, they'll increase in power and the forces of despotism will wither. That's why outsiders care about the Material Plane.

Fanciful hokum, but hokum nonetheless. You make it sound as if actual physical combat between demon princes or their armies is irrelevant.

 

[Shemeska]

Backsliding

Actually, according to (1st Ed.) Manual of the Planes there were no Greater Powers (or Intermediate Powers) dwelling in the Abyss because they would constantly have to contend with the demons.

And this was subsequently rewritten and has been for two editions. I know you love 1E material, but the game has since expanded on the material first established then.

As we can see from reading the Gord the Rogue books, in the face of an outside threat, the demons will grudgingly band together to combat and expel the interloper (a facet of their inherantly racist nature). So while a greater deity of evil might be able to defeat one demon prince (even with its home plane advantage), it would not be able to defeat the combined power of the Abyss which would rise against them.

I fail to see how the Gord books are relevant here. They were published after Gygax left TSR and while they might provide insight into Gary's ideas on the planes and their denizens, it varies in some very significant ways from the planes and fiends of 2e and 3e. Interesting yes, but not relevant to this discussion.

What the heck was the point of them talking about 2nd Edition deities in that sort of physical capacity anyway - it was all a bunch of arbitrary nonsense.

We know you hate 2E with a fury I fail to understand as someone who didn't play till 3e. Any discussion on such things ultimately boils down to you stating that 1E roXXors, 2e was an abomination, and what 3e largely embraced from 2e also sucks and which you hate, ignore, and largely aren't wholly familiar with. It's an edition war with you anytime we talk about planar material, and I really don't care to keep falling back into this.

Yet I do. *lament*

On the contrary the omission of stats was akin to spitting in the faces of epic/immortal gamers.

As you've made clear time after time. It 'oppresses' you.

The point is that there are many campaigns out there who want to use deities in a physical capacity, and its bordering on a disgrace that you and your cohorts continually whine, hiss and moan about the matter.

There's no reason to whine about this here in this thread, it's off topic and irrelevant.

Your usual lame response is "well WotC should be spending their resources in other areas." But who the hell died and made you the Fuhrer of roleplaying that you can dictate how other people should and shouldn't game.

The idea of begrudging someone else their joy (whether that be in the form of a book about Deities, Eberron, Psionics or whatever else) is just the very definition of a spiteful 'hater'.

*amused eyebrow* O...K...

I'm not against some book that delves into religions without including the stats (I own the Book of the Righteous for one), it may not be my preference I don't throw a hissy fit at the first suggestion of such a book.

As opposed to the current fit?

Theres nothing arbitrary about it. It links the outer planes directly to each prime material world, because its the dead spirits of that particular world who become demons, devils etc. in the first place.

I'm not familiar with your own personal houserules on this topic here, but they aren't all derived from the spirits of the dead in DnD. That's well established.

Unlike demons then...supposedly! Do I reference Durzugons now or later?

Don't get all worked UK, they're half-fiends, not full blooded Baatezu. Baatezu females are sterile, thus Baatezu cannot normally breed more of their own kind. Baatezu males are fertile, and can and do breed with mortals to create half-fiends. No one ever said they didn't.

If you want to talk game mechanics, since that's your focus, Durzagons don't have Baatezu traits.

Did somebody hear the word Durzugon just mentioned?

See above.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Shemmy mate!

And this was subsequently rewritten and has been for two editions. I know you love 1E material, but the game has since expanded on the material first established then.

I was replying specifically to Rips incorrect critique of 1st Edition, thats why I brought it up.

I fail to see how the Gord books are relevant here. They were published after Gygax left TSR and while they might provide insight into Gary's ideas on the planes and their denizens, it varies in some very significant ways from the planes and fiends of 2e and 3e. Interesting yes, but not relevant to this discussion.

What on Earth are you talking about! They are far more insightful and logical than that Planescape pap you keep touting, which, I could just as easily state is not relevant being 1.5 editions past its prime.

We know you hate 2E with a fury I fail to understand as someone who didn't play till 3e.

My distaste of 2nd Edition stems primarily from its removal of deity stats, its fundamentalist placating ways and mucking about with what was an already logical cosmology.

Planescape I didn't like for two reasons, one, that it made the planes 'cuddly' by allowing low-level characters to traipse about. However, in saying that, if I had been in charge of Planescape I would have done exactly the same thing, so I uderstand the design decision, but that doesn't mean I have to personally like it. The second is its continuance of the 2nd Edition deity agenda which helped no one.

Any discussion on such things ultimately boils down to you stating that 1E roXXors,

Its the only edition with the logical cosmology as far as I can see.

2e was an abomination,

2nd Edition was pretty much first edition with all the deities and demon lords physically removed. Given that our group were playing in an epic, and later an immortal campaign, its no wonder I see 2nd Edition as D&D's Dark Ages.

and what 3e largely embraced from 2e also sucks

3rd Edition hasn't borrowed anything I hated from 2nd Edition as far as I can tell.

and which you hate, ignore, and largely aren't wholly familiar with.

I'm familiar with 2nd Edition/Planescape, I just don't live by it, like you. I don't have every Planescape supplement, but I have enough to know I don't like it that much.

It's an edition war with you anytime we talk about planar material, and I really don't care to keep falling back into this.

I don't see it as anything to do with editions as much as it has to do with logic and practicality.

2nd editions treatment of deities (and to an extent its cosmology) is simply not practical for anyone who wants to use deities in a physical capacity.

3rd Edition had the right ideas (the stats approach) but its execution was lacking (no rules for how to become an immortal for instance, among numerous other faults).

Yet I do. *lament*

I don't see why you have cause for lamenting...you're not still upset about that whole 'kosmically' business are you?

As you've made clear time after time. It 'oppresses' you.

Funnily enough the only time I ever have to make such a thing 'clear' is when I have been replying to 'hater' comments about stats for gods from you or your insidious confederates.

There's no reason to whine about this here in this thread, it's off topic and irrelevant.

I wasn't going to bring it up until Rip started with his "we don't need stats, use your imagination and make them up yourself for God's sake!" diatribe.

*amused eyebrow* O...K...

Is that your Roger Moore impression? (The actor not the editor I mean)

As opposed to the current fit?

I'm merely defending immortal gaming from your embittered allies remarks.

I'm not familiar with your own personal houserules on this topic here, but they aren't all derived from the spirits of the dead in DnD. That's well established.

Well established in Planescape I would envision perhaps, but I don't use that work as my gospel.

Don't get all worked UK, they're half-fiends, not full blooded Baatezu. Baatezu females are sterile, thus Baatezu cannot normally breed more of their own kind. Baatezu males are fertile, and can and do breed with mortals to create half-fiends. No one ever said they didn't.

If you want to talk game mechanics, since that's your focus, Durzagons don't have Baatezu traits.

I've stated many times that fiends ability to produce offspring (while unnecessary in my opinion) is of no consequence beyond whether or not it can be used to gain an advantage in resources by the planar rulers. Which even Rip seems to agree it cannot. But he keeps bringing the matter up, so I didn't want to seem impolite by not replying to that particular point after he'd taken the time to post on it.