Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

[Shemeska]

Agreed. However, D&D cosmology isn't necessarily like this.

And how isn't it? The level of organization among the major exemplar races is very much based on what alignments they represent on the Law/Chaos axis.

The Tanar'ri are terribly fractured among competing powerful Abyssal Lords, the Baatezu are united under the banner of Asmodeus and their armies in the Blood War fight as a unified front, and the Yugoloths are somewhere in the middle. The Slaadi are chaos incarnate, with hardly any heirarchy beyond raw, immediate power, and the Modrons are a collective united under a single being in Primus. The Archons are effectively a perfect vision of a top-down military heirarchy united under the various banners of specific members of the Hebdomad, like 7 seperate divisions of Celestia's military, a shining inverse of Baator. The Guardinals are likewise a mirror of the Yugoloths, without the perverse corruptions of their ideological opposites. The Eladrin have a heirarchy, but its only power is symbolic, like the king or queen figurehead of a modern republic. Morwel's advice might be highly valued, but she can't dictate her whims upon the various Tulani nobles, nor would she. And then the Rilmani, ruled by the Aurumach council, but with each rank of the race having significant autonomy, perfectly balanced between all of the extremes.

Although you could argue Lucifer is the true master of Hell (did you ever read the old Dragon magazine article on him?)

For what it's worth, that article in dragon was explicitely not to be considered canon within the DnD cosmology, it even said as much within the article. As such, it's a moot point here.

Wasn't there Baernoloth stats printed in Planescape (I vaguely recall them) but they were just total pants?

Yes, in the Planes of Conflict box set. And there were stats for Daru Ib Shamiq (the one named Baern) in the Hellbound box set. And it was odd, because the level of influence and the frightening level of control they had over the Yugoloths, and arguably the entire lower planes, didn't match with their printed stats. Some of the things they actually did were not possible if you assume them to only have the stats they were listed as having their. And their level of knowledge and prescience regarding the entirety of the lower planes seemed to never be wrong when it came to specific details, specific secrets, specific dark and hidden things.

There were suggestions of them being able to control Baatezu and Tanar'ri and the 'loths all but worship them and willingly fall all over themselves to obey their dictates. That's not within their stats. The Baernaloths granted the Baatezu, Tanar'ri, and Yugoloth races collectively their abilities to teleport. Apomps, an exiled Baern, created an entire outsider race (Demodands/Gehreleths). Daru Ib Shamiq created a yugoloth 'ghost' without any link to the ethereal or negative energy planes.

They did a hell of a lot of things that weren't given as powers or spell-like abilities within the one stat block given for their type. But there's several ways to look at it:

1) This represents the still extant Baernaloths who have, in the eons since the creation of the Gray Waste, simply given up to apathy and the harrowing effect of their own native plane. Whatever they might once have been capable of, they have since forgotten or had leached from them.

2) The stats don't represent the frighteningly powerful Baernaloths, 'The Demented', who serve as 'advisors' to the most powerful unique Yugoloths (the General of Gehenna, the Oinoloth, Bubonix, Cerlic/Charon, etc) or to the most powerful Ultroloths. These remaining Baernaloths are entities of god-like power that view the entirety of the lower planes with a mad, dispassionate interest, playing it like a massive shell game of perhaps minor consequence in their own eons long proxy war versus the other abstract alignments.

3) The stats as presented are only for the less powerful Baernaloths who remain behind. It's important to keep in mind that once the Baernaloths transferred their overt power over the yugoloth race to the Ultroloths, that most of the entire Baernaloth race simply vanished. They may have merged with the plane, they might have returned to the semi-mythical source, neutral evil in the abstract, that sent them to the Waste as its heralds, they might have withered away in mad seclusion, etc. The original, god-like Baern who created the yugoloth race, and did the stuff of legends, might no longer remain behind in this multiverse, having literally abandoned their favored children to their own devices in an act of wanton cruelty that only fits so well. The 'loths remain convinced that the Blood War is their playground, that they are special in the eyes of Evil, that one day they will control the other fiend races, etc but in truth the Baern have no intentions of doing such, despite fostering this mythos in the eyes of their creations who may have been abandoned by their makers to make their own way.

A mix of these latter two is the take that I've gone with for my own elaboration of the members of 'The Demented' that particular group of 13 Baernaloths (though the number there is my own creation). Beyond the series of stories that detail each of those members, I actually wrote up stats for one of them, though it was only by virtue of that particular Baernaloth being encountered about as far away from its native plane, and source of power, as possible.

 

[GVDammerung]

For what it's worth, that article in dragon was explicitely not to be considered canon within the DnD cosmology, it even said as much within the article. As such, it's a moot point here.

To say, "It's moot," takes the easy way out and avoids the point by attempting to evade the inconvenient.

When that article was written there was no D&D cosmology comparable to the detail that exists now. If it excluded itself, it excluded itself from what was then written and nothing more. So much for "mootness." Any mootness is moot as the D&D cosmology has moved on.

The entire "fallen angel" idea has now been adopted into the D&D cosmology. I'm not sure without looking whether Lucifer is mentioned in other D&D sources, but assuming he is not, he is entirely relevant to the "fallen angle" idea, nonetheless.

Certainly, in the wider world of D&D licensed/approved material Lucifer is mentioned. Tome of Horrors leaps immediately to mind for the present 3X edition.

As an aside, IMO, when you argue D&D cosmology and exclude _any_ D&D material, licensed, "approved" etc. you are arguing in an artificially small pond. Except for IP purposes of interest primarily to lawyers, D&D was never just TSR and it is certainly not just Wotc. To imagine otherwise, unless your game follows international copyright treaties in addition to the PH, DMG and MMs, is another avoidance of the inconvenient. My two cents.

 

[Ripzerai]

If a mere demon lord, like Juiblex is a Lesser Power then the Dukes of Hell should also be considered Lesser Powers.

If the Dukes of Hell are lesser powers, the Lords of the Nine should be greater powers. I'm okay with that, but we're venturing far beyond our earlier parameters.

I don't know if they are used to fighting as a team. Likely Gruumsh, Baghtru and Ilneval. Remember also that a few of them don't have the Hells as their home plane.

Don't forget Luthic - every party needs a healer. Shargaas and Yutrus can boat in using the Styx, if worse comes to worst; Charon doesn't care who he gets his coins from. Or they could simply planeshift instantaneously into Nishrek if they're not interested in the scenic view.

Well we have to negate that 'can't be killed jive' for Gruumsh.

Then I get to negate the "lesser powers are immune to magic in their home realms" jive too, and everything else in the MotP. If we're making stuff up as we go along, debate is impossible.

C'mon, man, let's be hardcore! We have to use all the 1st edition rules, or we can't fairly judge whether the 1st edition cosmology is perfect or not.

I'm talking about picking a fight with him directly. Of course Demogorgon, or more likely his followers/servants, can be at odds with mortals who worship any of the norse gods.

Then it's reasonable for the Norse gods to be angry at Demogorgon.

Agreed. However, D&D cosmology isn't necessarily like this. Although you could argue Lucifer is the true master of Hell (did you ever read the old Dragon magazine article on him?).

It is, though.

and my old take on Lucifer is here. I think I'd demote him today, make him just a fallen solar living in Avernus.

If the General off Gehenna rules an entire plane and Demogorgon, or Asmodeus for that matter, do not. Why should they all be of equal power?

Asmodeus, as a being of despotism incarnate, rules his plane far more thoroughly than the General rules Gehenna. Demogorgon, as a being of primal chaos, gains more power from not ruling than he would from ruling; the war and chaos and strife created by his style gift him with far more power than attempting to imitate the Overlord of Hell would. I think he may be the only demon prince who truly understands that.

I suspect Sytgia will still be here long after Levistus is not.

Certainly. If Set had attempted to go against Geryon during his administration the scenario would have been the same (except Geryon can move around more easily).

So, try again in another 100 years. Demogorgon will be ready and better prepared.

So will Heironeous.

That just seems innappropriate as far as I can see. They should be severely weakened, what you suggest is like a gentle slap on the wrist. The deity has to risk something.

Don't look at me. You're the one who thought it was a perfect cosmology.

The book doesn't imply that at all, It certainly never says they should be powered up on their home plane directly after being killed on a non-native plane.

It says the ability works like Astral Spell, and that's how Astral Spell works. The only ways in which the two effects are said to differ is that a deity's silver cord can't be severed by githyanki or Astral storms. That means Heironeous must have a true body sleeping in his realm while he goes planar adventuring. When his astral projection - his avatar - dies, his true body awakens. That's what the rules say, and I know for a fact I'm not the only one who's interpreted them that way.

How else would you interpret it? How many hit dice should recently-killed Heironeous have? If he has no body, how can he be damaged? Can he still use his spell-like abilities? There are no rules to cover this, which means there's either a major gap in the rules in which we could make up pretty much anything we want or we simply use the rules for Astral Spell, which is what Deities & Demigods refers us to. The latter seems the only reasonable solution to me.

Deities & Demigods said over and over how hard it should be to kill a god, even for other gods. That's the reason. It wouldn't be that hard for one god to kill another if they could just teleport back to their enemy's God-re-Grower and kill them with a coup de grace attack.

Heironeous rejuvenation chamber

You're making things up again - nothing in the rules says anything that implies Heironeous can't teleport around his realm freely. As a lesser deity, Heironeous can make a soul object, but that only comes into play if he's killed in his home realm.

Heironeous would be rejuvenating, so he couldn't follow a defeated Demogorgons silver cord.

Not Heironeous, the other gods who appear to kill Demogorgon because it's part of their portfolio to kill demons - Rao, Vishnu, Mitra, Tyr. That is, assuming Heironeous doesn't just deal with him himself. Demogorgon entering the Heavens takes the same risks as Heironeous in the Abyss; if Demogorgon can easily find Heironeous, then Rao can easily find Demogorgon. In fact, it's much more dangerous for Demogorgon, since lawful good gods are much more inclined to help one another.

And, of course, it's still not entirely clear that Demogorgon can leave the planes of chaotic evil without being summoned.

Even if we adhere rigidly to MotP for the purposes of the argument, once they incapacitate Gruumsh they could always launch a jihad on orcs everywhere so that when Gruumsh is back on his feet he is really weakened.

If they incapacitate Gruumsh. It's debatable whether they could actually do this, given orcish fecundity and the risk they put their plane in while they busy their legions with such inessential tasks. What if Hextor takes advantage of this game of orcish whack-a-mole to attack, or Demogorgon? I can see them annihilating Finland or Norway, but all the orcs? In such a way that they're not back to their old numbers in a hundred years?

I'd have Indrajit and Kumbakarna as Lesser Deities of Gehenna. As long as he wasn't fighting on Indra's home plane he would have a good chance.

He actually was - Indrajit seized control of Svarga, Indra's palace, and forced Indra to be his servant there.

True, but its not going to be easy. Acererak was just a lich after all.

And the adventurers are gods.

In 1st Edition you divide by 4.5 to get Hit Dice.

Phongor's got 28 hit dice, then. Asmodeus can just barely bring him in, but he doesn't even have enough hit dice left to get an imp (2+2 HD). He rolled a four, so we'll be generous and give him a 1st level tiefling even though they technically don't exist in this edition. Phongor has a 60% chance of getting still another pit fiend or two. I'm rolling the dice now in a chatroom, and he gets one pit fiend and the chain ends. Alastor rolls to summon a pit fiend and ends up with three companions in all. So it's Hextor and whoever he has with him versus Asmodeus, Phongor, four pit fiends, Alastor the Grim, and a bewildered and completely out of his depth 1st level tiefling fighter, who doesn't get a saving throw against Hextor's Discord effect anyway but perhaps Asmodeus finds him amusing. Hextor pulls 600 skeletons and zombies that he summoned back home out of his Bag of Extra-Holding and the battle commences! Then Asmodeus threatens to teleport away laughing and things go as before.

 

[BOZ]

Lucifer (Dragon #28-ish) was never used again after that article, to the best of my knowledge. unless you want to count the conversion in Tome of Horrors.

 

[Shemeska]

Lucifer (Dragon #28-ish) was never used again after that article, to the best of my knowledge. unless you want to count the conversion in Tome of Horrors.

There was a joking reference made in passing to Satan/Lucifer as a rumor in Asmodeus' writeup in the BoVD, which IIRC Monte mentioned as being a name drop in reference to that very old Dragon article, but not meant seriously. I don't recall the exact thing Monte said though.

Otherwise Lucifer has been completely ignored in DnD's treatment of Baator throughout the decades.

 

[BOZ]

basically, yeah. he was used in plenty of homebrewed campaigns i'm sure, but i think Gygax generally wanted to avoid using Judeochristian names for things.

 

[demiurge1138]

basically, yeah. he was used in plenty of homebrewed campaigns i'm sure, but i think Gygax generally wanted to avoid using Judeochristian names for things.

Well, at least overt ones. Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, Baazebuul (or Beelzebub as he's more commonly known), Moloch, Bael, Mammon and Belial are all either devils or the Devil in lore, mysticism and literature.

Demiurge out.

 

[BOZ]

true, but i think most of those names originated in the greek, babylonian, and other mythos.

 

[Shemeska]

basically, yeah. he was used in plenty of homebrewed campaigns i'm sure, but i think Gygax generally wanted to avoid using Judeochristian names for things.

*nod* DnD has used the names, and the associated atmosphere of them, but it has never used -the- Devil. It wouldn't work to use old Morningstar himself because DnD doesn't have anywhere near the same level of Good/Evil duality as you find in the Judeo/Christianity. Law and Chaos are just as important as Good and Evil in the Great Wheel / DnD cosmology, so it would be a forced fit.

The closest that DnD has ever come to it was in the 2e 'Guide to Hell' that attempted to completely redefine Asmodeus as Ahriman of Zoarastrian myth, though this material has since been reduced from fact to rumor and otherwise been minimized and ignored, blatantly in fact. And even then, that source didn't have Asmodeus/Ahriman as a fallen being of good, but as a fallen being of Law who was corrupted by evil. It took some of the themes and trappings of the Lucifer mythology, but it never claimed that the DnD being was literally the Devil. Such a being doesn't conceptually fit into the 4 axis alignment system of DnD.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Shemmy!

And how isn't it?

The number of deities in someones cosmology can vary from campaign to campaign, thats how.

Yes, in the Planes of Conflict box set. And there were stats for Daru Ib Shamiq (the one named Baern) in the Hellbound box set. And it was odd, because the level of influence and the frightening level of control they had over the Yugoloths, and arguably the entire lower planes, didn't match with their printed stats.

A bit like Mydianchlarus then.

1) This represents the still extant Baernaloths who have, in the eons since the creation of the Gray Waste, simply given up to apathy and the harrowing effect of their own native plane. Whatever they might once have been capable of, they have since forgotten or had leached from them.

2) The stats don't represent the frighteningly powerful Baernaloths, 'The Demented', who serve as 'advisors' to the most powerful unique Yugoloths (the General of Gehenna, the Oinoloth, Bubonix, Cerlic/Charon, etc) or to the most powerful Ultroloths. These remaining Baernaloths are entities of god-like power that view the entirety of the lower planes with a mad, dispassionate interest, playing it like a massive shell game of perhaps minor consequence in their own eons long proxy war versus the other abstract alignments.

3) The stats as presented are only for the less powerful Baernaloths who remain behind. It's important to keep in mind that once the Baernaloths transferred their overt power over the yugoloth race to the Ultroloths, that most of the entire Baernaloth race simply vanished. They may have merged with the plane, they might have returned to the semi-mythical source, neutral evil in the abstract, that sent them to the Waste as its heralds, they might have withered away in mad seclusion, etc. The original, god-like Baern who created the yugoloth race, and did the stuff of legends, might no longer remain behind in this multiverse, having literally abandoned their favored children to their own devices in an act of wanton cruelty that only fits so well. The 'loths remain convinced that the Blood War is their playground, that they are special in the eyes of Evil, that one day they will control the other fiend races, etc but in truth the Baern have no intentions of doing such, despite fostering this mythos in the eyes of their creations who may have been abandoned by their makers to make their own way.

A mix of these latter two is the take that I've gone with for my own elaboration of the members of 'The Demented' that particular group of 13 Baernaloths (though the number there is my own creation). Beyond the series of stories that detail each of those members, I actually wrote up stats for one of them, though it was only by virtue of that particular Baernaloth being encountered about as far away from its native plane, and source of power, as possible.

I'd vote for #2.