Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

[Clueless]

The number of deities in someones cosmology can vary from campaign to campaign, thats how.

Isn't that changing the campaign to fit your needs though? Making it non-canon material - making it custom - making it a house rule.

And doesn't that - considering the debate going on right now - sort of negate the point?

Last I checked this wasn't a debate on any *particular person's* house ruled version of the game.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Rip!

If the Dukes of Hell are lesser powers, the Lords of the Nine should be greater powers. I'm okay with that, but we're venturing far beyond our earlier parameters.

I'm simply remarking that Juiblex, a Demon Lord was attributed the same power as Demogorgon a Demon Prince/Monarch. Its difficult to know if they had much of a distinction in 1st Edition.

Don't forget Luthic - every party needs a healer. Shargaas and Yutrus can boat in using the Styx, if worse comes to worst; Charon doesn't care who he gets his coins from. Or they could simply planeshift instantaneously into Nishrek if they're not interested in the scenic view.

Yes, but those deities will not have the Home plane advantages of the others. That was my point.

Then I get to negate the "lesser powers are immune to magic in their home realms" jive too, and everything else in the MotP. If we're making stuff up as we go along, debate is impossible.

C'mon, man, let's be hardcore! We have to use all the 1st edition rules, or we can't fairly judge whether the 1st edition cosmology is perfect or not.

Cosmology and mechanics are two different things though.

Then it's reasonable for the Norse gods to be angry at Demogorgon.

My point is that Demogorgon would never personally manifest against a church of Odin or some other crime that would cause Odin to attack him.

Demogorgon might allow his avatar to be gated in by his worshippers to attack the church in question. But Demogorgon himself won't attack the holdings of a greater power personally. Neither would Demogorgon attack any of Odins holdings in Asgard.

Asmodeus, as a being of despotism incarnate, rules his plane far more thoroughly than the General rules Gehenna. Demogorgon, as a being of primal chaos, gains more power from not ruling than he would from ruling; the war and chaos and strife created by his style gift him with far more power than attempting to imitate the Overlord of Hell would. I think he may be the only demon prince who truly understands that.

That all seems a bit arbitrary.

So will Heironeous.

Maybe he'll be luckier next time round.

Don't look at me. You're the one who thought it was a perfect cosmology.

I think you are confusing cosmology with mechanics.

It says the ability works like Astral Spell, and that's how Astral Spell works. The only ways in which the two effects are said to differ is that a deity's silver cord can't be severed by githyanki or Astral storms. That means Heironeous must have a true body sleeping in his realm while he goes planar adventuring. When his astral projection - his avatar - dies, his true body awakens. That's what the rules say, and I know for a fact I'm not the only one who's interpreted them that way.

I don't think it would be his avatar in the avatar sense.

How else would you interpret it? How many hit dice should recently-killed Heironeous have?

1d8 Hit Dice/Levels, regaining 1d8 more each day. Gods of different power would rejuvenate at different speeds (a greater deity would be restored 2d8/day for instance)

If he has no body, how can he be damaged?

Treat as incorporeal.

Can he still use his spell-like abilities?

Only in so much as his current Hit Dice/Levels allow (and you would need 2 Hit Dice for every spell-level of a spell-like ability you wanted to cast).

There are no rules to cover this, which means there's either a major gap in the rules in which we could make up pretty much anything we want or we simply use the rules for Astral Spell, which is what Deities & Demigods refers us to. The latter seems the only reasonable solution to me.

What do you think of the above idea?

Deities & Demigods said over and over how hard it should be to kill a god, even for other gods. That's the reason. It wouldn't be that hard for one god to kill another if they could just teleport back to their enemy's God-re-Grower and kill them with a coup de grace attack.

Gods are near invincible in their home plane, just not after being destroyed elsewhere.

You're making things up again - nothing in the rules says anything that implies Heironeous can't teleport around his realm freely. As a lesser deity, Heironeous can make a soul object, but that only comes into play if he's killed in his home realm.

Yep.

Not Heironeous, the other gods who appear to kill Demogorgon because it's part of their portfolio to kill demons - Rao, Vishnu, Mitra, Tyr. That is, assuming Heironeous doesn't just deal with him himself. Demogorgon entering the Heavens takes the same risks as Heironeous in the Abyss; if Demogorgon can easily find Heironeous, then Rao can easily find Demogorgon. In fact, it's much more dangerous for Demogorgon, since lawful good gods are much more inclined to help one another.

And, of course, it's still not entirely clear that Demogorgon can leave the planes of chaotic evil without being summoned.

1st Ed. Manual of the Planes pg. 124 Standard Divine Abilities:

Astral Travel at will (all deities)

If they incapacitate Gruumsh. It's debatable whether they could actually do this, given orcish fecundity and the risk they put their plane in while they busy their legions with such inessential tasks. What if Hextor takes advantage of this game of orcish whack-a-mole to attack, or Demogorgon? I can see them annihilating Finland or Norway, but all the orcs? In such a way that they're not back to their old numbers in a hundred years?

Well remember we are talking about kosmically localised numbers. The devils will clearly outnumber the orcs unless your prime material plane (or one of them) is 'Orcworld'.

He actually was - Indrajit seized control of Svarga, Indra's palace, and forced Indra to be his servant there.

He must have had some artifact(s) that gave him an advantage...or perhaps Indra was still weakened from being defeated recently outside his home realm.

And the adventurers are gods.

Exactly, which means the defenders will be 'loading for bear'.

Phongor's got 28 hit dice, then. Asmodeus can just barely bring him in, but he doesn't even have enough hit dice left to get an imp (2+2 HD). He rolled a four, so we'll be generous and give him a 1st level tiefling even though they technically don't exist in this edition. Phongor has a 60% chance of getting still another pit fiend or two. I'm rolling the dice now in a chatroom, and he gets one pit fiend and the chain ends. Alastor rolls to summon a pit fiend and ends up with three companions in all. So it's Hextor and whoever he has with him versus Asmodeus, Phongor, four pit fiends, Alastor the Grim, and a bewildered and completely out of his depth 1st level tiefling fighter, who doesn't get a saving throw against Hextor's Discord effect anyway but perhaps Asmodeus finds him amusing. Hextor pulls 600 skeletons and zombies that he summoned back home out of his Bag of Extra-Holding and the battle commences! Then Asmodeus threatens to teleport away laughing and things go as before.

If the battle is taking place in Asmodeus palace in Nessus, then he is always going to have guards in attendance and more within earshot. Once Hextor or any of his cohorts are discovered, someone trips the alarm and then they execute the intruder alert protocols while Asmodeus secures the kill zone around his amphitheatrical throne room. Therein he'll probably have his 99 elite heavily armed Pit Fiend bodyguard, half a dozen Dukes of Hell, a handful of epic mortal servants, a great wyrm dragon or two a few beholders and whichever golems are at hand (Hellfire Golems?). Thats not counting the waves of forces attacking Hextor and his cohorts at every step of the way, whittling them down more and more as they progress.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there!

Isn't that changing the campaign to fit your needs though? Making it non-canon material - making it custom - making it a house rule.

Does someone running a Greyhawk campaign automatically acknowledge the existence of the Greek Pantheon?

Regardless, I just don't agree that making Asmodeus and Demogorgon among others, Greater Powers just because there are other greater powers out there. Even if we assume that the control of certain groups of immortals is generally attributed to beings of greater power stature, neither Asmodeus nor Demogorgon rule their peers absolutely. In 3rd Edition, you might have a case that they could perhaps be borderline Intermediate Powers within the framework of Planescape; but certainly not Greater Powers.

 

[GVDammerung]

Even if we assume that the control of certain groups of immortals is generally attributed to beings of greater power stature, neither Asmodeus nor Demogorgon rule their peers absolutely. In 3rd Edition, you might have a case that they could perhaps be borderline Intermediate Powers within the framework of Planescape; but certainly not Greater Powers.

One might look at what Asmodeus and Demogorgon are capable of doing.

Asmodeus, ala Men in Black, has captured an entire prime material world in a gem. Grazzt talks about doing this to Toril. Asmodeus has done it.

Demogorgon has forged an entire layer of the Abyss into a magical vessel. Grazzt dreams of adding layers to his realm. Demogorgon fashions the odd layer to his will while maintaining his own layer.

Arguably, no single diety, devil or demon could duplicate either feat.

Asmodeus and Demogorgon seem to be demonstrably more than merely the greatest of their respective kinds.

Not that Asmodeus and Demogorgon should be "gods." I think that they loose something if they are said to be divinities. But they can still be "other." Not gods but neither just the biggest or baddest of their kind. "Demongods?" "Devilgods?" "Elderdemons?" "Elderdevils?" Whatever. They need a new category.

I'd add Orcus to that category, whatever it may be, as well. He's obviously more than just a "demon prince."

 

[Shemeska]

The number of deities in someones cosmology can vary from campaign to campaign, thats how.

We weren't even talking about deities, we were talking about the organization of the outsider races that matched each alignment. Where'd that comment come from?

If we're using the Great Wheel, then there are going to be a massive amount of deities out there on the planes, but only a small fraction of them will have a divine presence upon any given prime material world, and thus they won't have any impact unless you're out on the planes. So ignoring that the deity comment in that quote above seems to have come out of thin air and has nothing to do with what we were talking about, I don't see it as an issue really.

A bit like Mydianchlarus then.

Mydianchlarus has never had stats. He/She/It was a supremely powerful 'Ultroloth Prince', but at this point the process of becoming Oinoloth seems just as likely to have made him a unique entity just as much as Anthraxus was made more than the mundane yugoloth he was before his own transformation into his unique form.

I'd vote for #2.

I can see that, and it's partially the way that I went with it. I've got a stat block for Methikus Sar Telmuril around here somewhere, though it only applies off of the lower planes.

 

[Shemeska]

Not that Asmodeus and Demogorgon should be "gods." I think that they loose something if they are said to be divinities. But they can still be "other." Not gods but neither just the biggest or baddest of their kind. "Demongods?" "Devilgods?" "Elderdemons?" "Elderdevils?" Whatever. They need a new category.

I'd add Orcus to that category, whatever it may be, as well. He's obviously more than just a "demon prince."

*nod* Even for the Archfiends that hadn't gone for true divinity, they were clearly on the same playing field as actual deities. Very different but equivalent or greater in power w/ regards to their native plane seemed to be the general take that Planescape took, though there was no expansive ruleset that nailed this down; there was really no need to do so.

But of the Archfiends, as you said, some were just on another level from their own kind:

Tanar'ri - Demogorgon and Pale Night seem to be the top, though the latter is a hell of a lot more subtle. You might include Orcus and Grazzt here, though I wouldn't personally, at least because of Orcus' recent setbacks, and the unknown level of influence Pale Night peddles through her child Grazzt.

Baatezu - Asmodeus, no contest here just by definition, ignoring the Ancient Baatorians for the moment.

Yugoloths - the General of Gehenna, the Oinoloth, and the Baernaloth 'advisors' of them all

Demodands/Gehreleths - Apomps the Triple Aspected, exiled Baernaloth and something more and something less than a true deity.

 

[Ripzerai]

Cosmology and mechanics are two different things though.

No, they're not. The mechanical powers of deities and planar lords are an integral part of any cosmology, and altering them would logically alter the cosmology tremendously.

"Cosmology" has a much broader meaning than the particular arrangement and nature of the planes of existence. The destiny of souls, the nature of the gods, and the relationship between gods and planar rulers are all parts of it. That is to say, theology is an essential component in cosmology, and part of that broader field. If you change the mechanics so that gods are easier to kill, then that changes the cosmology.

My point is that Demogorgon would never personally manifest against a church of Odin or some other crime that would cause Odin to attack him.

He wouldn't need to. No matter what his minions do, the buck stops at Demogorgon's desk.

That all seems a bit arbitrary.

No. "Arbitrary" would be if the yugoloth leaders were far more powerful than the masters of the Hells and the Abyss for no particular reason. Correlating the strength of central authority with the nature of the alignment the various races personify is whatever the opposite of "arbitrary" is. Canonical, certainly, and eminently logical.

1d8 Hit Dice/Levels, regaining 1d8 more each day. Gods of different power would rejuvenate at different speeds (a greater deity would be restored 2d8/day for instance) Treat as incorporeal. Only in so much as his current Hit Dice/Levels allow (and you would need 2 Hit Dice for every spell-level of a spell-like ability you wanted to cast).

That's a pretty complex set of mechanics you had to invent out of whole cloth to avoid reading Deities & Demigods literally.

Gods are near invincible in their home plane, just not after being destroyed elsewhere.

Then they're not "near invincible." Heironeous would only have to ambush Demogorgon the moment he stepped outside Gaping Maw.

Astral Travel at will (all deities)

Yeah, I know - but does the earlier restriction against demons leaving the three planes of chaotic evil without being summoned override this? Some references suggest that this is the case. I can see it being argued both ways.

The devils will clearly outnumber the orcs unless your prime material plane (or one of them) is 'Orcworld'.

The orcs will be on many different worlds even in your cosmology, since the only limitation is that the worlds know about each other. If an "orcworld" (for example, Borka in Greyspace) is aware of Oerth (as the Borkans are), then both will connect to the same kosmic localized thingy. Or, to give another example, Oerth and Toril are aware of one another.

Regardless, the baatezu may not be willing to sacrifice a large number of the troops who would normally be defending their plane. And, of course, by 1st and early 2nd edition rules, they would have to be summoned to enter the Material Plane, which means you need a high-level spellcaster for each devil summoned, more or less (some could summon more than others, and they could continue churning armies into their world for an extended period of time, but you'd think that such a process would be interrupted by other forces eventually).

I think fiends could erase deities from existence by targeting their followers on the Material Plane under the following conditions:

1. A truce in the Blood War.
2. The devils are targeting single-world deities, not gods who are worshipped on a variety of worlds in the same cosmology, as the orc gods are. Too much of a hassle otherwise.
3. You assume fiends can enter the Material Plane without being summoned.

Something like this did happen in the Hellbound timeline, where the fiends united to punish certain gods from interfering with the Blood War, but the three conditions were in effect.

If the battle is taking place in Asmodeus palace in Nessus, then he is always going to have guards in attendance and more within earshot.

Hextor lures him out of his throne room first, of course. He's not that stupid. But we've already established that Asmodeus can simply teleport back to whatever ground he chooses, so it's all irrelevant.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there!

One might look at what Asmodeus and Demogorgon are capable of doing.

Asmodeus, ala Men in Black, has captured an entire prime material world in a gem. Grazzt talks about doing this to Toril. Asmodeus has done it.

I presume this is the other form of the Planescape Asmodeus at work. The one thats vastly more powerful than the other Archdevils and reputedly some form of Overgod.

As for Graz'zt, talk is cheap.

Demogorgon has forged an entire layer of the Abyss into a magical vessel. Grazzt dreams of adding layers to his realm. Demogorgon fashions the odd layer to his will while maintaining his own layer.

Seems straightforward enough.

Arguably, no single diety, devil or demon could duplicate either feat.

You need to get out more.

Asmodeus and Demogorgon seem to be demonstrably more than merely the greatest of their respective kinds.

Asmodeus in his 2nd Edition serpenty buried true form, which in many peoples eyes is something else altogether.

Not that Asmodeus and Demogorgon should be "gods." I think that they loose something if they are said to be divinities. But they can still be "other." Not gods but neither just the biggest or baddest of their kind. "Demongods?" "Devilgods?" "Elderdemons?" "Elderdevils?" Whatever. They need a new category.

All power is relative, I don't see why they need some new descriptor.

I'd add Orcus to that category, whatever it may be, as well. He's obviously more than just a "demon prince."

Why do you say obviously?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Rip!

No, they're not. The mechanical powers of deities and planar lords are an integral part of any cosmology, and altering them would logically alter the cosmology tremendously.

The general power attributed to them is integral to the cosmology, not whether Demogorgon has 575 hit points or 576.

"Cosmology" has a much broader meaning than the particular arrangement and nature of the planes of existence. The destiny of souls, the nature of the gods, and the relationship between gods and planar rulers are all parts of it. That is to say, theology is an essential component in cosmology, and part of that broader field. If you change the mechanics so that gods are easier to kill, then that changes the cosmology.

I'd like to think I am following the spirit of the rules.

He wouldn't need to. No matter what his minions do, the buck stops at Demogorgon's desk.

So does that mean you agree with me?

No. "Arbitrary" would be if the yugoloth leaders were far more powerful than the masters of the Hells and the Abyss for no particular reason.

Like ruling an entire plane as opposed to a few layers.

Correlating the strength of central authority with the nature of the alignment the various races personify is whatever the opposite of "arbitrary" is. Canonical, certainly, and eminently logical.

If Demogorgon gets more powerful the less layers he rules why doesn't he give away his realm in a lottery?

That's a pretty complex set of mechanics you had to invent out of whole cloth to avoid reading Deities & Demigods literally.

But did you like them or not?

Then they're not "near invincible." Heironeous would only have to ambush Demogorgon the moment he stepped outside Gaping Maw.

Who only has to teleport away. You need to be extra special to drop a deity in one round. Thor could probably manage it, and some of the other heavy hitters, but not likely Heironeous.

Yeah, I know - but does the earlier restriction against demons leaving the three planes of chaotic evil without being summoned override this? Some references suggest that this is the case. I can see it being argued both ways.

Hey - well if we have to take Manual of the Planes at face value.

The orcs will be on many different worlds even in your cosmology, since the only limitation is that the worlds know about each other.

Such orcs may well worship different gods, a whole different Orc Pantheon even.

If an "orcworld" (for example, Borka in Greyspace) is aware of Oerth (as the Borkans are), then both will connect to the same kosmic localized thingy. Or, to give another example, Oerth and Toril are aware of one another.

Does everyone use Oerth, Toril and Borka though?

Regardless, the baatezu may not be willing to sacrifice a large number of the troops who would normally be defending their plane. And, of course, by 1st and early 2nd edition rules, they would have to be summoned to enter the Material Plane, which means you need a high-level spellcaster for each devil summoned, more or less (some could summon more than others, and they could continue churning armies into their world for an extended period of time, but you'd think that such a process would be interrupted by other forces eventually).

I think fiends could erase deities from existence by targeting their followers on the Material Plane under the following conditions:

1. A truce in the Blood War.
2. The devils are targeting single-world deities, not gods who are worshipped on a variety of worlds in the same cosmology, as the orc gods are. Too much of a hassle otherwise.
3. You assume fiends can enter the Material Plane without being summoned.

Something like this did happen in the Hellbound timeline, where the fiends united to punish certain gods from interfering with the Blood War, but the three conditions were in effect.

I suppose the above could work, perhaps even individually.

Remember the goal is only to weaken Gruumsh to Lesser Power where he could be permanently killed.

Hextor lures him out of his throne room first, of course.

How...set his fortress on fire?

Regardless, Asmodeus teleports back to his throne room at the first sign of trouble, assuming he would be gullible enough to be outwitted by Hextor and not far more likely to send a messenger instead of attending personally.

He's not that stupid. But we've already established that Asmodeus can simply teleport back to whatever ground he chooses, so it's all irrelevant.

Exactly, you need to fight your way in, and on top of that defeat the defending deity where he is absolutely at the pinnacle of his power, resources and the attacker is at a massive tactical disadvantage.

One interesting method was adopted by an NPC called Doomstar (multi-million year old super-spellcasting alien mutant) in our campaign who simply visited the court of the greater deity Anu, requested an audience with the deity and then promptly dropped him like a bag of dirt with a single (tweaked) magic missile spell...but then again he was almost on a par with an overgod. On second thoughts probably not a good yardstick.

 

[Shemeska]

I presume this is the other form of the Planescape Asmodeus at work. The one thats vastly more powerful than the other Archdevils and reputedly some form of Overgod.

That wasn't Planescape actually. Planescape left him about as mysterious and undefined as possible, it was the post Planescape 2E 'Guide to Hell' that went off in its own direction with Asmodeus, and which defined him as equivalent in power to a greater deity. It never called him an Overgod, nor has any other source.

'Guide to Hell', or rather a portion of the book, is often loathed by PS adherents for its out of nowhere blatant linking of Asmodeus to Ahriman of Zoarastrian myth, its largely ignoring of the Ancient Baatorians, and its rather pithy dismissal of a number of other things. Not all of the book is bad certainly, but its material on Asmodeus really -really- rubs me the wrong way with its imposition of a pseudo-monotheistic duality onto the 4 way axis of DnD alignment. Some people like it, other people don't, and it's a big point of dispute w/ regards to Asmodeus.

Thankfully in my view though, that material in GtH has since been written into only a rumor in 3e at most. Frankly it works well in my mind as subtle and unofficial Baatorian state propaganda and a sort of Baatezu cult of personality revolving around the Lord of the 9th that can be put out there and then promptly denied by the Ministry of Information to put a shine to it all. It might not have any basis in truth at all, but that never stops tyrants from exploiting such things.

Asmodeus in his 2nd Edition serpenty buried true form, which in many peoples eyes is something else altogether.

That actually never appeared till the non Planescape 'Guide to Hell', and didn't have any precident before that point in 1e or 2e. And again, the 3e material has either turned it into only rumor, not fact (MotP) or has ignored it and arguably revoked it (BoVD).

All power is relative, I don't see why they need some new descriptor.

But not all power can necessarily be quantified in relation to other levels of power. And who says that all given entities will even be on the same playing field w/ respect to common definitions of power.