Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

[demiurge1138]

Quite a few did as I recall. I'll have to look them up later, but they're there. 'On Hallowed Ground' will have them listed out.

Both the 1e and 3e Manual of the Planes mention various deities in Hell and the Abyss, from Tiamat and Set (Hell) to the Great Mother and Diiriinka (Abyss).

Demiurge out.

 

[BOZ]

many other sources, from when D&D first introduced the ideas that gods were on planes, up until the most recent books, had some gods on both Nine Hells and Abyss. don't make me go look them up, because i have far more important things to do.

 

[BOZ]

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2701470&postcount=13

1E Manual of the Planes (p101-103):

...

mention is made of some gods on the Abyss, such as Vaprak, Laogzed, and Urdlen. Feng-Tu, the realm of Tou Mu and Lu Yueh is described, as well as the layer of Kali.

 

[Ripzerai]

So are you saying she can't be one then?

I'm saying it was a retcon, not Tiamat's original state. In her first appearance (in Supplement I: Greyhawk) she lived at the bottom of a dungeon on the Material Plane.

I certainly like her as a deity, myself.

Yet you still advocate 2nd Edition has the best treatment of the cosmology!

I didn't say that. 2nd edition was tremendously inconsistent. What I said was that 2nd edition - Planescape specifically - fixed a gaping cosmology problem, even if it didn't always stick with its fix.

I'm not here to be part of an edition war or anything like that - the editions aren't monolithic. Different things were tried within each edition. I'm just saying that there was an approach at one time that worked better than all the other various approaches that have been tried over the decades.

Gary Gygax knew that it was a problem for gods of any rank to share the same plane with demons and devils, so he seperated them in his campaign, but other designers ignored that. For example, the archdevils aren't a match for the orc pantheon, who lived in the Hells in 1st and early 2nd edition. That's what I meant when I said he tried mightily to fix things but didn't succeed.

I believe that wasn't even enough. A plane isn't any barrier to beings who can planeshift at will.

Demogorgon isn't going to spit in Odin's soup if he can help it.

My Demogorgon isn't going to tiptoe around the sensibilities of mere gods. Mine will ally himself with the jotuns gleefully, and much panic will ensue before things calm down. Gods and fiends ought to be able to interact as equals - if they can't, you're severely limiting the possibilities of adventuring in the divine sphere.

Actually the Abyss was split into three factions.

Right. That's why I said he was fighting a third of the other lords of the Abyss as opposed to all of them. I don't think he was actually fighting both the other factions at once - that is, two thirds.

But the Theopart business is probably a bad example, as it was a very artificial means of upsetting the balance on the lower planes. We should probably not bring it up in the future.

Its also illustrative of the Demon Princes Lesser Power being comparable to Greater power.

Demogorgon isn't going to be an impressive trophy for a Greater Deity.

A greater deity with trophies of lesser deities (or weaker) is hardly a worthy hunter. I

Which is it? Is Demogorgon a formidable challenge for a Greater Power or is he going to be an unimpressive trophy? If Vishnu and Demogorgon battle is it an epic confrontation where Vishnu risks ultimate extermination or is he shooting ducks in a barrel?

Yes, but even you recognise that the differences you have stated are setting based. Whereas the differences in 2nd Edition were from generic products.

No, that's not correct. All of the FR products after the Book of Vile Darkness came out retconned Orcus to sub-divine status. In 2nd edition, Tiamat appears both as a god and as a "racial paragon" in two different Forgotten Realms products (Draconomicon and Cult of the Dragon). So the differences are there within the same setting in both editions.

The term Overgod probably has too much baggage for you - how about Elder One, Old One, First One, Time Lord, Proto-deity, Lady of Pain, Galactus etc.

The Lady of Pain doesn't leave Sigil (she resembles an overgod in that respect, though she may not come close to matching one in power). As for the others, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at - are supra-deities a threat to deities or not? You sound like you're saying they never, never fight - is this actually physically impossible? If it isn't, the cosmos loses a lot of freedom and dynamicism, which is why I dislike the overgod concept so much as it's been used in the Forgotten Realms, with the gods constantly having to look over their shoulders in case some greater boss-god decides to rearrange everything.

Rather, the planes should be ruled by those who dwell there. The meta-gods should be unknown and unknowable by anyone in the Great Ring, like it was in the D&D Immortal's Set - the Old Ones wait enigmatically beyond the Vortex Dimension for their grand experiment to be complete. I think allowing them to interfere in the Game of Time before it's finished is extremely bad design - there is far too much potential for deus ex machinas. The gods and planar lords need their independence.

That doesn't mean to say such beings are never encountered therein.

That's exactly what I mean to say. They have a grand meta-multiverse to explore, and they're not going to shrink themselves to fit in the known cosmos any more than a microbiologist is going to fit inside his own microscope.

I'd like to think Nerull-Infestix was certainly one.

That's a complex topic. It's certainly reasonable to say that he wasn't - he needed Demogorgon to do his work in the Abyss, and the Lords of the Nine were his allies, not his minions. He was called a "daemon" a number of times, which implies he was actually a yugoloth, as I would term it. That is, he filled the same place in the cosmology as the General of Gehenna does in 2nd/3rd edition. "Nerull" was only his avatar on Oerth, and he was truly a greater being than any mere single-sphere god, a planar lord equivalent to Demogorgon and Asmodeus but not greater than them. The lesser yugoloths were already under his sway, while the Lords of the Nine allied with him only because he had a Theopart.

But they are not the ultimate personifications of their alignments because they do not rule alone (unlike Nerull-Infestix).

True enough, but they are collectively. That is, the Lords of the Nine each represent approximately 1/9 of the totallity of Lawful Evil - very approximately, as some are certainly more powerful than others. Asmodeus is the unquestioned ruler of his plane.

Infestix is mightier than any of the Diseased Eight alone, but Asmodeus is mightier than any of his eight vassals alone. It's reasonable to think that Infestix could be overthrown if Bubonis, Anthraxus, and the others ganged up on him.

The Lords of the Abyss arguably each represent only a miniscule fraction of the Abyss' total power, but the Six Monarchs of Demonium together contain within themselves an extremely disproportionate fraction. Demogorgon doesn't rule his plane like Asmodeus rules his - the Abyss is, I'd argue, unrulable - but they are approximately equal in direct might.

You might fairly disagree as to what Gygax's intentions were - he may indeed have intended Infestix to be actually more powerful than his lawful or chaotic counterparts - but if in a balanced, circular multiverse, the greatest ruler of the neutral evil planes should be no more powerful than the greatest of the chaotic evil or lawful evil planes.

Control a single layer = Demipower
Control multiple layers = Lesser Power
Control a single plane = Intermediate Power
Control multiple planes = Greater Power

I disagree with this quite emphatically, mainly because most Greater Powers don't rule multiple planes, or even a single layer of anything. An outer plane is more important to the cosmology than any single god unless your cosmology is very tiny and includes no more than 17 greater gods (not counting the elemental ones). This should be - must be - reflected in their respective power levels, or the cosmology becomes unbalanced.

Even if your only greater gods are Nerull, Pelor, Beory, Rao, Boccob, and Incabulos, I think it's best if Asmodeus and Demogorgon deal with Nerull as equals, or NE becomes more important than CE or LE. The more gods there are, the more proportionately powerful the cosmology's constants - the planar lords - should be.

Also, the chart is a bit too neat and tidy for my liking. It seems reasonable that one ruler of a single layer might be a few ranks higher or lower than another.

Seths victory is not assured. The status quo is assured. If Seth acts against the devils they will team up to defend themselves, because if he takes them on alone they know they will fall one by one. But neither are the devils unified enough to launch an attack. None of the Archdevils want to be first in the door to face Set.

I think Set should be formidable enough within his own realm, but he should be at a disadvantage going after even a single archdevil alone.

If I say "Few people make active volcanoes their home because they would have to continually deal with the noxious gases, heat and lava flows", it doesn't mean that a few do.

That's an extreme example, and illogical. The Abyss obviously isn't an "active volcano" for deities, as numerous lesser and intermediate gods dwell there - you wouldn't say "few experienced mountaineers dwell in active volcanoes, but numerous couch potatoes do." I think a better parallel would be to say something like "few of the upper class dwell in the shady side of town, because they would have to continually deal with the vagrants, hoodlums, and upstart minorities." It doesn't mean that they never live there, not when you could just as easily use the word "none."

There are no listed Greyhawk gods with home planes in the Abyss and no Greater (Greyhawk) deities in the Nine Hells.

That's not the point. The point is that the Manual of the Planes constrained itself to listing gods from Deities & Demigods - it didn't attempt to list every deity in the multiverse, and would have been foolish to limit future products in such a way. The lists of gods in that book are meant to be examples only, not comprehensive.

All the settings shared a common set of planes - we might argue with Dragonlance, since that was never perfectly defined at that point, but the others, certainly. Off the top of my head, Set, Druaga, Inanna, Gruumsh, Maglubiyet, Kurtulmak, Baghtru, Ilneval, and many others were jostling for control of the Hells, while Beshaba, Umberlee, Chemosh, Hiddukel, Laogzed, Kali, and a number of others live in the Abyss.

Yes but once you make a habit of killing demon princes, they are going to make a habit of attacking and terrorising everything you hold dear.

Arguably, they could only go travel to the Abyss, Tartarus, and Pandemonium unless they were summoned elsewhere. I say "arguably" because it's likely that the rules for deities - who could planeshift at will - trumps this, but not perfectly clear. There are a number of sources that imply that figures like Juiblex, Pazuzu, and Graz'zt had to wait until they were summoned before they could enter the Prime Material Plane.

In addition, an arch-devil is at a disadvantage compared to deities - they required 2-8 weeks to recover enough after death to plane travel or send a servitor elsewhere, while gods only needed 1-4 weeks to recover from death. It's certainly arguable that it would be difficult if not impossible for a demon prince to hunt down the precise location of a deity's essence within that 1-4 week period.

How is that different from saying we need to know how many experience points are needed to gain a level?

Because it takes hundreds of years for demons to advance, while class levels can be advanced within a single game session.

...so you admit it then!?

Yes.

the home plane advantage mechanism.

Ah, yes - I had forgotten about that. That only appeared in the Manual of the Planes, though, didn't it? I can't find it as a rule in Deities & Demigods - I see a mention that they're more powerful there on page 11, but no details; it implies that the territorial advantage is the same as any creature would have in familiar territory (since it says all creatures have it, not just gods). If this was a Manual of the Planes retcon, it's undoubtedly a good change- gods and demons should be more powerful in their own realms. I just don't think it goes far enough, since Vishnu is going to be far more powerful in his realm than Demogorgon is in his.

And again, this seems to contradict what you've said before and what you say subsequently - is Demogorgon (or Asmodeus) a worthy trophy or isn't he? If he's a threat to anyone who tries to take him on, he's the worthy goal of an epic, divine-level quest. If he a weakling of little consequence, then he should be dead by now. Either way he should be dead by now.

But yeah, I agree that the (post-Manual of the Planes) 1st edition status quo is infinitely better than the (post-Vile Darkness) 3rd edition one. I just think certain takes hinted at in Planescape were better than either. 1st edition could have been better too, with a little buffing up so that the major rulers of the planes were equal to the greater deities in status. The buffing up that the Manual of the Planes gave them was a great idea, but it wasn't quite there.

But if you are defeated outside your home plane, any being that can see into the astral plane (deities among others) can instantly follow your silver cord back to your home plane (blind teleport roll to succeed...about a 50% chance back then IIRC) and finish you off.

Not so. Heironeous fights Demogorgon and loses. Heironeous finds himself instantly back to the Fields of Glory in Venya. Once there, he's emphatically not helpless, only unable to grant spells above 3rd level or travel to another plane. He's now twice as powerful as he was when he fought Demogorgon the first time. If he decides he wants to wait until he's back to his full strength (so he can skip across the planes again) he can simply hide somewhere in his vast realm - once he's back on his home plane, he has no silver cord to follow. Meanwhile, the Throne Archon of Venya instantly senses Demogorgon's incursion and martials all the hosts of the Heavens against the hated demon prince, who is already wounded from his battle. Vast legions of solars, planetars, devas, and sword archons teleport into Demogorgon's vicinity and engage Demogorgon's hosts while the greater gods of Mount Celestia hear the news and teleport directly into the Prince of Demon's presence, probably slaughtering him before he can get away, and certainly before he can enact retribution on Heironeous. Then they follow his silver cord back to Abysm and engulf his palace in an inferno of holy fire, possibly (assuming this fire is nonmagical) destroying his soul object and killing him permanently. Because lawful good deities get along much better than chaotic evil ones, I think it's safe to say that Demogorgon fears angering the forces of Mount Celestia far more than they fear angering the Monarchs of Demonium. Graz'zt and Orcus will teleport into Abysm to finish Demogorgon off if Vishnu, Rao, and Tyr don't manage it.

And Greater Powers, according to the 1e Manual of the Planes, are utterly immune to violent death. Demogorgon can be killed (assuming his soul amulet is also destroyed) but they can't. At all. If they're killed elsewhere they reform on their home plane, and they can't be killed on their home plane by anyone or anything.

Reasonably, the forces of Good can send wave after wave of deities after Demogorgon, each willing to take incredible risks in battle that Demogorgon is not, confident that nothing will happen to them if they're defeated. The only good reason that they don't is that they're not willing to start Armageddon between the forces of good and evil yet. When that happens, we can expect the planar lords to be the first to go, sending the demons and devils into disarray while the gods concentrate on one another. I don't like that kind of cosmology; I don't like having the beings who personify the planes as mere servants or second-runners to the deities. In mythology, great demons like Hiranyaksha, Ravana, Apep, or Belial are beings worthy adversaries of the greatest gods, whether they're on their home ground or not. In the polytheistic multiverse of D&D, they should be among the major antagonists in any level of play.

within a deities realm you cannot neccessarily simply trump their wards even if you are normally more powerful

After looking at the rules carefully - yeah, in 1st edition that's true (though not in 3rd edition, where a rival only has to be powerful enough to beat the DC of the ward effect). I thought Asmodeus or Demogorgon didn't have any way of blocking teleportation in 1e, since it wasn't one of their spell-like abilities either as themselves or as lesser gods, they don't have class levels, and they can't use wish to benefit themselves in any way - but yeah, there's a note in the back of the MotP of lesser deities being able to alter up to 80 spell levels so they malfunction within his realm. Asmodeus could make it so any attempt to teleport into Malsheem causes the caster to end up in a sealed, windowless, doorless room full of acid and other unpleasant things thousands of feet beneath the palace - and the hapless deity would be unable to teleport out again without ending up in the same room. That's really nasty, and it was clever of Jeff Grubb to add that. Prior to 1987, Hextor could have teleported in, killed Asmodeus and left possibly without even raising an alarm, but after that date Hextor will have to make his way through the palace physically. Hextor can't affect Asmodeus or the palace itself magically, so he'll have to sneak in - which is possible, as Asmodeus isn't granted any extraordinary senses in his domain other than the ability to look, if he consciously thinks of doing so, into the Astral Plane (which doesn't border Nessus anyway). Hextor can still use many of his other abilities to aid him. It might be the equivalent of beating the Tomb of Horrors, but he could manage it. I think he could take Asmodeus in a fight, though it'd be difficult - Asmo has almost exactly twice as many hit points in his home realm, but Hextor, with his six arms and superior weapons, dishes out more than twice as much damage. Asmodeus is immune to Hextor's magic, but Hextor has 90% spell resistance himself. We'll assume that Asmodeus has blocked Hextor's summoning abilities, so his only allies will be whatever minions he's snuck in with him. Asmodeus will be able to summon one pit fiend to his service (and it will be Alastor, who has 104 hit points), who has a 70% chance of summoning another, who has a 70% chance of summoning another, and so on - but that's not necessarily insurmountable, as each time there's a 30% chance that the chain will end and nobody will have the ability to summon anything, and many of them will be made helpless by Hextor's Symbol of Hate and Discord, assuming they fail their saving throws. And Hextor's an able tactician, so he'll drive Asmodeus into a small room the pit fiends can't fit into and try to finish him off quickly. Asmodeus than yawns and says, "Hextor, my poor misguided adopted son, what do you think you're doing?"

And Hextor says, "Taking over Hell! Raargh! It's all very Oedipal!"

Asmodeus points out that he can teleport without error to a safe location at any time, while an army of pit fiends who now knows Hextor's exact location can finish him off... and Hextor, post-Manual of the Planes, probably can't use any of his spell-like abilities to escape, assuming the DM is thinking things out properly. And the gulf of power between a lesser deity and a pit fiend, while great, isn't quite so great in 1st edition as your narrator thinks it ought to be.

Hextor says, "Let's forget this ever happened, shall we?"

Asmodeus gives him a kiss on the cheek and says, "Of course, my darling love, my bouncing baby boy. I gave you those arms because I have a use for you."

Hextor says, "I really miss the Queen of the Demonweb Pits era."

"We all do," says Asmodeus. "It was amusing to think of Lolth having only 66 hit points. Alas, this is the brave new post-Gygaxian era, and Jeff Grubb has provided us with a somewhat more sensible cosmology. I still think I ought to be a greater deity, of course."

"You win for now," says Hextor. "But I'll be back in second edition, when pit fiends will have no chance against my true, non-avatar form."

"You won't find me," says Asmodeus. "I'll lie low. You can search my entire palace and find nothing more intimidating than the Dark Eight until Planes of Law reintroduces me as the Dark Lord of Nessus, and then I'll be able to easily fend off attacks by such as you."

Hextor grits his teeth. "A day will come," he vows, "When the Book of Vile Darkness will render you absolutely defenseless! I'll use alter reality, destroy you in a single round, and teleport away laughing! You won't even have a soul object!"

"That's low-class," says Asmodeus. "You might as well brag about being able to defeat me in Candyland. Now, Upper Krust's rules..."

Hextor sneers. "I may not know a lot about Upper Krust's rules, but I know 3rd edition. Every effect has a Difficulty Class, and I'll be an intermediate deity to your lesser. I'll beat your teleportation ward, surround you with an Anti-Magic Field to prevent you from teleporting yourself, and finish you off. I won't even have to find my way through your palace! Not only will my attacks do more damage, but my hit points will be far greater than anything you can imagine!"

"We shall see," says Asmodeus. "We shall see."

 

[Ripzerai]

"We all do," says Asmodeus. "It was amusing to think of Lolth having only 66 hit points. Alas, this is the brave new post-Gygaxian era."

Not that Gygax hadn't been slowly increasing the powers of deities as well, or that Q1 was written by Gygax. I'm not saying Asmodeus wouldn't have had those cool powers if Gary Gygax had been the one who wrote the Manual of the Planes - I have no idea. I do know that the evolution from 1st to 2nd edition was a gradual incline rather than a sudden radical phase shift; although there were of course some radical changes as well, it's sometimes difficult to distinguish between the two (most notably in the Greyhawk Adventures hardcover and the Hall of Heroes accessory for FR, both of which managed to use 1st and 2nd edition rules simultaneously).

So Asmodeus probably should have just said "brave new era," but there's no arguing with the Dark Lord of Nessus once he gets a way of organizing things in his head. He likes to break things up into parts, ideally groups of nine.

 

[Shemeska]

Both the 1e and 3e Manual of the Planes mention various deities in Hell and the Abyss, from Tiamat and Set (Hell) to the Great Mother and Diiriinka (Abyss).

Demiurge out.

For whatever reason when I first mentioned that yes there were, I thought that UK only was speaking about Greater Deities in those planes, implying that there weren't any and putting folks on the spot to name some, hence why I didn't name any off the top of my head since I didn't necessarily recall divine rank of those deities in said planes. But he didn't have that qualifier... heck I can think of tons of deities in those planes, they're all over the place layer to layer.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Rip!

I'm saying it was a retcon, not Tiamat's original state. In her first appearance (in Supplement I: Greyhawk) she lived at the bottom of a dungeon on the Material Plane.

I don't really see it as a retcon, as it didn't really change anything.

I certainly like her as a deity, myself.

There you go then.

I didn't say that. 2nd edition was tremendously inconsistent. What I said was that 2nd edition - Planescape specifically - fixed a gaping cosmology problem, even if it didn't always stick with its fix.

There was no cosmology problem as I see it, and 2nd Edition was clearly badly designed from that point of view.

I'm not here to be part of an edition war or anything like that - the editions aren't monolithic. Different things were tried within each edition. I'm just saying that there was an approach at one time that worked better than all the other various approaches that have been tried over the decades.

I fail to see how Planescape 'worked better'?

Gary Gygax knew that it was a problem for gods of any rank to share the same plane with demons and devils, so he seperated them in his campaign, but other designers ignored that. For example, the archdevils aren't a match for the orc pantheon, who lived in the Hells in 1st and early 2nd edition. That's what I meant when I said he tried mightily to fix things but didn't succeed.

Orc Pantheon: 1 Greater Deity, 5 Lesser Deities and presumably a few Demi and Quasi-deities

Archdevils: 9 Lesser Deities, 99 Quasi-deities, Pit Fiend Legions and so forth.

I don't see that as very one-sided.

I believe that wasn't even enough. A plane isn't any barrier to beings who can planeshift at will.

The realm is the only barrier needed.

My Demogorgon isn't going to tiptoe around the sensibilities of mere gods. Mine will ally himself with the jotuns gleefully, and much panic will ensue before things calm down. Gods and fiends ought to be able to interact as equals - if they can't, you're severely limiting the possibilities of adventuring in the divine sphere.

I'm not limiting him as much as I am playing him intelligently. Hes not going to pick a fight he can't win.

Right. That's why I said he was fighting a third of the other lords of the Abyss as opposed to all of them. I don't think he was actually fighting both the other factions at once - that is, two thirds.

Graz'zt was fighting both the other factions at once, thats why he was hemmed in. But Graz'zt had the Theorpart and the Eye of Deception (most powerful artifact ever created in the Abyss).

But the Theopart business is probably a bad example, as it was a very artificial means of upsetting the balance on the lower planes. We should probably not bring it up in the future.

Well, even if we remove the Theorpart from all factions the power groups are still consistent. But we can forget the matter if you wish.

Which is it? Is Demogorgon a formidable challenge for a Greater Power or is he going to be an unimpressive trophy? If Vishnu and Demogorgon battle is it an epic confrontation where Vishnu risks ultimate extermination or is he shooting ducks in a barrel?

Well, I was trying to second guess you were using 3rd Edition. Remember Greater Power is different in 2nd/3rd Ed.

I think Demogorgon on his home plane would probably defeat most (1st Ed.) Greater Gods (likely not the real heavy hitters of course like Thor or some of the Pantheon Heads)

In 2nd edition, Tiamat appears both as a god and as a "racial paragon" in two different Forgotten Realms products (Draconomicon and Cult of the Dragon). So the differences are there within the same setting in both editions.

2nd Edition, bleh.

The Lady of Pain doesn't leave Sigil (she resembles an overgod in that respect, though she may not come close to matching one in power).

Okay so you have now established there are multiple powers beyond Greater Power.

As for the others, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at - are supra-deities a threat to deities or not? You sound like you're saying they never, never fight - is this actually physically impossible? If it isn't, the cosmos loses a lot of freedom and dynamicism, which is why I dislike the overgod concept so much as it's been used in the Forgotten Realms, with the gods constantly having to look over their shoulders in case some greater boss-god decides to rearrange everything.

I think the introduction of beings more powerful than greater powers should be used sparingly. I generally tend to think of them as the old ones, they might be dormant, or trapped, or bound. But occasionally they'll slip their dimensional shackles and pantheons of gods will have to ally to defeat them, even if its only a temporary defeat - returning them to their prison.

Rather, the planes should be ruled by those who dwell there.

Absolutely.

The meta-gods should be unknown and unknowable by anyone in the Great Ring, like it was in the D&D Immortal's Set - the Old Ones wait enigmatically beyond the Vortex Dimension for their grand experiment to be complete. I think allowing them to interfere in the Game of Time before it's finished is extremely bad design - there is far too much potential for deus ex machinas. The gods and planar lords need their independence.

I don't really like that constraint. Like I said, its something to be used sparingly, but it does occasionally happen.

I have always found the Pantheons of the Megaverse supplement to be very evocative on this subject.

That's exactly what I mean to say. They have a grand meta-multiverse to explore, and they're not going to shrink themselves to fit in the known cosmos any more than a microbiologist is going to fit inside his own microscope.

Well again this brings us back to the whole black and white solution.

If we can allow mortals to interact with immortals then we can also allow immortals to interact with siderals (cosmic gods).

That's a complex topic. It's certainly reasonable to say that he wasn't - he needed Demogorgon to do his work in the Abyss,

because Demogorgon (and his forces) wasn't as hampered by being a non-native.

and the Lords of the Nine were his allies, not his minions.

I think he might have had trouble forcing them to do his bidding (with home plane advantage), but he was clearly more powerful.

He was called a "daemon" a number of times, which implies he was actually a yugoloth, as I would term it.

Absolutely.

That is, he filled the same place in the cosmology as the General of Gehenna does in 2nd/3rd edition.

Well, the General only rules Gehenna, Infestix ruled Gehenna, Hades and Tarterus.

"Nerull" was only his avatar on Oerth, and he was truly a greater being than any mere single-sphere god, a planar lord equivalent to Demogorgon and Asmodeus but not greater than them.

I disagree. He was clearly greater than them.

The lesser yugoloths were already under his sway, while the Lords of the Nine allied with him only because he had a Theopart.

I think they allied with him because they too wanted Tharizdun released.

True enough, but they are collectively. That is, the Lords of the Nine each represent approximately 1/9 of the totallity of Lawful Evil - very approximately, as some are certainly more powerful than others. Asmodeus is the unquestioned ruler of his plane.

He rules, but hes more the head of government than a dictator with absolute power.

Infestix is mightier than any of the Diseased Eight alone, but Asmodeus is mightier than any of his eight vassals alone. It's reasonable to think that Infestix could be overthrown if Bubonis, Anthraxus, and the others ganged up on him.

I disagree. First of all, a cursory glance at Nerulls 1st Edition stats tells us he is way more powerful than Anthraxus. Nerull was not only a Greater God, but with 400 hp effectively on a par with Pantheon Heads. Whereas Anthraxus (most powerful Daemon Master) was at best a Lesser Power. Secondly, Nerull was able to demote/promote Daemon Masters at will, as shown in the book. He is also refered to as the Nether Emperor in the books as well, whereas other evil beings are refered to as kings, at best).

The Lords of the Abyss arguably each represent only a miniscule fraction of the Abyss' total power, but the Six Monarchs of Demonium together contain within themselves an extremely disproportionate fraction. Demogorgon doesn't rule his plane like Asmodeus rules his - the Abyss is, I'd argue, unrulable - but they are approximately equal in direct might.

I think with a strong enough ruler, control of the Abyss is possible. But you would really need to be far more powerful than your rivals.

You might fairly disagree as to what Gygax's intentions were - he may indeed have intended Infestix to be actually more powerful than his lawful or chaotic counterparts - but if in a balanced, circular multiverse, the greatest ruler of the neutral evil planes should be no more powerful than the greatest of the chaotic evil or lawful evil planes.

Gygax introduced the Arch-Deva as well (who may or may not have been Pelor?), which, reading between the lines was Nerulls good counterpart.

So if we have Archons, Guardinals and Eladrins for good. Demons, Daemons and Devils for evil, the Angels would seemingly be something else.

Nerull could be daemonic in the same sense as the Baernoloths, who could be angelic counterparts rather than Archon/Guardinal/Eladrin counterparts.

I disagree with this quite emphatically, mainly because most Greater Powers don't rule multiple planes, or even a single layer of anything.

That chart only applies to the Spiritual Hierarchies, not deities (of other origin) though.

An outer plane is more important to the cosmology than any single god unless your cosmology is very tiny and includes no more than 17 greater gods (not counting the elemental ones). This should be - must be - reflected in their respective power levels, or the cosmology becomes unbalanced.

Absolutely.

Even if your only greater gods are Nerull, Pelor, Beory, Rao, Boccob, and Incabulos, I think it's best if Asmodeus and Demogorgon deal with Nerull as equals, or NE becomes more important than CE or LE. The more gods there are, the more proportionately powerful the cosmology's constants - the planar lords - should be.

I think on a Pantheon to Planar Hierarchy basis the devils and demons could hold their own in their home plane.

Also, the chart is a bit too neat and tidy for my liking. It seems reasonable that one ruler of a single layer might be a few ranks higher or lower than another.

I agree, but that power difference would be gained via worshippers rather than planar control.

I think Set should be formidable enough within his own realm, but he should be at a disadvantage going after even a single archdevil alone.

Why?

That's an extreme example, and illogical. The Abyss obviously isn't an "active volcano" for deities, as numerous lesser and intermediate gods dwell there - you wouldn't say "few experienced mountaineers dwell in active volcanoes, but numerous couch potatoes do." I think a better parallel would be to say something like "few of the upper class dwell in the shady side of town, because they would have to continually deal with the vagrants, hoodlums, and upstart minorities." It doesn't mean that they never live there, not when you could just as easily use the word "none."

Its a very clear point of grammar as far as I can see.

That's not the point. The point is that the Manual of the Planes constrained itself to listing gods from Deities & Demigods - it didn't attempt to list every deity in the multiverse, and would have been foolish to limit future products in such a way. The lists of gods in that book are meant to be examples only, not comprehensive.

I agree, but its also pretty clear how beings of a certain power would fit into a given plane.

All the settings shared a common set of planes - we might argue with Dragonlance, since that was never perfectly defined at that point, but the others, certainly. Off the top of my head, Set, Druaga, Inanna, Gruumsh, Maglubiyet, Kurtulmak, Baghtru, Ilneval, and many others were jostling for control of the Hells, while Beshaba, Umberlee, Chemosh, Hiddukel, Laogzed, Kali, and a number of others live in the Abyss.

I don't remember ever reading Gruumsh was jostling for control of the Hells?

Arguably, they could only go travel to the Abyss, Tartarus, and Pandemonium unless they were summoned elsewhere. I say "arguably" because it's likely that the rules for deities - who could planeshift at will - trumps this, but not perfectly clear. There are a number of sources that imply that figures like Juiblex, Pazuzu, and Graz'zt had to wait until they were summoned before they could enter the Prime Material Plane.

Any deity can block Plane Shift to their realm (as per page 126 Manual of the Planes).

In addition, an arch-devil is at a disadvantage compared to deities - they required 2-8 weeks to recover enough after death to plane travel or send a servitor elsewhere, while gods only needed 1-4 weeks to recover from death. It's certainly arguable that it would be difficult if not impossible for a demon prince to hunt down the precise location of a deity's essence within that 1-4 week period.

Once you get killed you are banished from the plane/world for a century.

Because it takes hundreds of years for demons to advance, while class levels can be advanced within a single game session.

Ah, yes - I had forgotten about that. That only appeared in the Manual of the Planes, though, didn't it? I can't find it as a rule in Deities & Demigods - I see a mention that they're more powerful there on page 11, but no details; it implies that the territorial advantage is the same as any creature would have in familiar territory (since it says all creatures have it, not just gods). If this was a Manual of the Planes retcon, it's undoubtedly a good change - gods and demons should be more powerful in their own realms.

I agree.

I just don't think it goes far enough,

You'll like my interpretation.

since Vishnu is going to be far more powerful in his realm than Demogorgon is in his.

Relatively speaking its the same increase though.

And again, this seems to contradict what you've said before and what you say subsequently - is Demogorgon (or Asmodeus) a worthy trophy or isn't he? If he's a threat to anyone who tries to take him on, he's the worthy goal of an epic, divine-level quest. If he a weakling of little consequence, then he should be dead by now. Either way he should be dead by now.

Its a matter of editions and what exactly constitutes a greater deity.

But yeah, I agree that the (post-Manual of the Planes) 1st edition status quo is infinitely better than the (post-Vile Darkness) 3rd edition one. I just think certain takes hinted at in Planescape were better than either. 1st edition could have been better too... The buffing up that the Manual of the Planes gave them was a great idea, but it wasn't quite there.

I think it would have helped to have all the details listed in one place.

with a little buffing up so that the major rulers of the planes were equal to the greater deities in status.

On their home plane they were.

Not so. Heironeous fights Demogorgon and loses. Heironeous finds himself instantly back to the Fields of Glory in Venya. Once there, he's emphatically not helpless, only unable to grant spells above 3rd level or travel to another plane. He's now twice as powerful as he was when he fought Demogorgon the first time. If he decides he wants to wait until he's back to his full strength (so he can skip across the planes again) he can simply hide somewhere in his vast realm - once he's back on his home plane, he has no silver cord to follow.

The book mentions that such a being is weakened. I don't see how being twice as powerful is weakened. The being should have to rejuvenate its destroyed manifestation.

Meanwhile, the Throne Archon of Venya instantly senses Demogorgon's incursion and martials all the hosts of the Heavens against the hated demon prince, who is already wounded from his battle. Vast legions of solars, planetars, devas, and sword archons teleport into Demogorgon's vicinity and engage Demogorgon's hosts while the greater gods of Mount Celestia hear the news and teleport directly into the Prince of Demon's presence, probably slaughtering him before he can get away, and certainly before he can enact retribution on Heironeous.

Wouldn't save Heironeous. By following the silver cord Demogorgon would be transported directly to Heironeous place of rejuvenation. Heironeous might have some of his own servants on high alert just in case of his defeat (given where he was going initially), but would his servants be able to defeat Demogorgon? Perhaps if Demogorgon was heavily wounded (although if thats the case he might not take the risk in the first place.

Then they follow his silver cord back to Abysm and engulf his palace in an inferno of holy fire, possibly (assuming this fire is nonmagical) destroying his soul object and killing him permanently. Because lawful good deities get along much better than chaotic evil ones, I think it's safe to say that Demogorgon fears angering the forces of Mount Celestia far more than they fear angering the Monarchs of Demonium. Graz'zt and Orcus will teleport into Abysm to finish Demogorgon off if Vishnu, Rao, and Tyr don't manage it.

Firstly they would have to find out, secondly, they would either have to locate Demogorgons rejuvenation manifestation hideout (which is likely to be very well hidden) and thirdly they would have to take it by force (likely very well defended). By that time Demogorgon should be back on his feet.

And Greater Powers, according to the 1e Manual of the Planes, are utterly immune to violent death. Demogorgon can be killed (assuming his soul amulet is also destroyed) but they can't. At all. If they're killed elsewhere they reform on their home plane, and they can't be killed on their home plane by anyone or anything.

That rule always seemed to contradict Deities & Demigods (page 11) - we certainly never used it.

Reasonably, the forces of Good can send wave after wave of deities after Demogorgon, each willing to take incredible risks in battle that Demogorgon is not, confident that nothing will happen to them if they're defeated. The only good reason that they don't is that they're not willing to start Armageddon between the forces of good and evil yet.

The reason is, if Heironeous attacks Demogorgon without provocation, hes in effect the bad guy in the western 'drawing first'. The forces of good are not going to 'pull out all the stops to avenge Heironeous' if he 'started it'.

When that happens, we can expect the planar lords to be the first to go, sending the demons and devils into disarray while the gods concentrate on one another. I don't like that kind of cosmology; I don't like having the beings who personify the planes as mere servants or second-runners to the deities.

I never said they were. They are powers unto themselves, but they are not invincible.

In mythology, great demons like Hiranyaksha, Ravana, Apep, or Belial are beings worthy adversaries of the greatest gods, whether they're on their home ground or not. In the polytheistic multiverse of D&D, they should be among the major antagonists in any level of play.

I'd have Ravana as an Intermediate Power of Acheron.

After looking at the rules carefully - yeah, in 1st edition that's true (though not in 3rd edition, where a rival only has to be powerful enough to beat the DC of the ward effect).

But we are in agreement that the 3rd Edition rules are not perfect.

I thought Asmodeus or Demogorgon didn't have any way of blocking teleportation in 1e, since it wasn't one of their spell-like abilities either as themselves or as lesser gods, they don't have class levels, and they can't use wish to benefit themselves in any way - but yeah, there's a note in the back of the MotP of lesser deities being able to alter up to 80 spell levels so they malfunction within his realm. Asmodeus could make it so any attempt to teleport into Malsheem causes the caster to end up in a sealed, windowless, doorless room full of acid and other unpleasant things thousands of feet beneath the palace - and the hapless deity would be unable to teleport out again without ending up in the same room. That's really nasty, and it was clever of Jeff Grubb to add that.

Yes, its a great addition. Something similar happened to my deity character. My Lawful Good deity character was gated (I went willingly - don't ask) in by Mephisto to a sealed steel smooth well, which was immediately engulfed in Anti-Magic (which worked on deities back then). Above the well was a multi-ton block of solid steel on a chain (like a big plug). Basically my character was held to ransom by the Mephisto faction for quite a lot of money/magic and so forth.

Prior to 1987, Hextor could have teleported in, killed Asmodeus and left possibly without even raising an alarm, but after that date Hextor will have to make his way through the palace physically. Hextor can't affect Asmodeus or the palace itself magically, so he'll have to sneak in - which is possible, as Asmodeus isn't granted any extraordinary senses in his domain other than the ability to look, if he consciously thinks of doing so, into the Astral Plane (which doesn't border Nessus anyway). Hextor can still use many of his other abilities to aid him. It might be the equivalent of beating the Tomb of Horrors, but he could manage it.

Remember also that Asmodeus could have areas of anti-magic. Areas with access via teleports or gates only (which could have other enchantments like energy draining without the proper key etc.). Hell also have rooms full of guards who can detect invisible (most devils), or smell you (hell hounds), or some with true seeing. Mechanical traps. Lead lined locked doors (which you can't ethereally travel through). Trapped dead ends. Basically it should make the Tomb of Horrors look like a picnic.

I think he could take Asmodeus in a fight, though it'd be difficult - Asmo has almost exactly twice as many hit points in his home realm, but Hextor, with his six arms and superior weapons, dishes out more than twice as much damage. Asmodeus is immune to Hextor's magic, but Hextor has 90% spell resistance himself.

To be fair some of the Monster Manual Archdevil (or Demon Prince) stats didn't seem to fully make sense.

I mean Asmodeus lists 1 attack and 4-14 damage. But logically that should be weapon damage + strength + cause serious wounds. Also he should have 2 attacks (consistent with MM2 arch-devils). Assuming he doesn't use the breath weapon power of his Rod.

Baalzebul's stats are even more ridiculous.

Hextor should also have an extra attack for being a 16th-level Fighter.

We'll assume that Asmodeus has blocked Hextor's summoning abilities, so his only allies will be whatever minions he's snuck in with him.

I can't see him sneaking any in without being detected. Which will give Asmodeus ample time to prepare a welcoming committee.

Asmodeus will be able to summon one pit fiend to his service (and it will be Alastor, who has 104 hit points),

Remember Lesser Powers (and Demi-powers) can Summon (1d6 creatures up to 30 HD, 20 HD for demipowers) and Gate as their major abilities.

who has a 70% chance of summoning another, who has a 70% chance of summoning another, and so on - but that's not necessarily insurmountable, as each time there's a 30% chance that the chain will end and nobody will have the ability to summon anything, and many of them will be made helpless by Hextor's Symbol of Hate and Discord, assuming they fail their saving throws. And Hextor's an able tactician, so he'll drive Asmodeus into a small room the pit fiends can't fit into and try to finish him off quickly. Asmodeus than yawns and says, "Hextor, my poor misguided adopted son, what do you think you're doing?"

Whats more likely is that Asmodeus will learn of Hextors attack and then have him run a gauntlet of traps and challenges that lead to a specially prepared kill room where Asmodeus waits with his 99 toughest Pit Fiend bodyguards and as many of his Dukes of Hell that can be gathered in time. The Pit Fiends can screen Asmodeus while he uses his magic (or rod)

And Hextor says, "Taking over Hell! Raargh! It's all very Oedipal!"

Asmodeus points out that he can teleport without error to a safe location at any time, while an army of pit fiends who now knows Hextor's exact location can finish him off... and Hextor, post-Manual of the Planes, probably can't use any of his spell-like abilities to escape, assuming the DM is thinking things out properly. And the gulf of power between a lesser deity and a pit fiend, while great, isn't quite so great in 1st edition as your narrator thinks it ought to be.

Hextor says, "Let's forget this ever happened, shall we?"

Asmodeus gives him a kiss on the cheek and says, "Of course, my darling love, my bouncing baby boy. I gave you those arms because I have a use for you."

Hextor says, "I really miss the Queen of the Demonweb Pits era."

"We all do," says Asmodeus. "It was amusing to think of Lolth having only 66 hit points. Alas, this is the brave new post-Gygaxian era, and Jeff Grubb has provided us with a somewhat more sensible cosmology. I still think I ought to be a greater deity, of course."

"You win for now," says Hextor. "But I'll be back in second edition, when pit fiends will have no chance against my true, non-avatar form."

"You won't find me," says Asmodeus. "I'll lie low. You can search my entire palace and find nothing more intimidating than the Dark Eight until Planes of Law reintroduces me as the Dark Lord of Nessus, and then I'll be able to easily fend off attacks by such as you."

Hextor grits his teeth. "A day will come," he vows, "When the Book of Vile Darkness will render you absolutely defenseless! I'll use alter reality, destroy you in a single round, and teleport away laughing! You won't even have a soul object!"

"That's low-class," says Asmodeus. "You might as well brag about being able to defeat me in Candyland. Now, Upper Krust's rules..."

Hextor sneers. "I may not know a lot about Upper Krust's rules, but I know 3rd edition. Every effect has a Difficulty Class, and I'll be an intermediate deity to your lesser. I'll beat your teleportation ward, surround you with an Anti-Magic Field to prevent you from teleporting yourself, and finish you off. I won't even have to find my way through your palace! Not only will my attacks do more damage, but my hit points will be far greater than anything you can imagine!"

"We shall see," says Asmodeus. "We shall see."

Very nice!

Of course my rules take the good ideas from the rest.

Hextor would convert to 56th-level (32nd Fighter, 5th Rogue, 19th Assassin). Asmodeus would convert to 49 Hit Dice Outsider with 24th-level integrated Cleric Spellcasting as well as his spell-like abilities.

 

[Ripzerai]

Orc Pantheon: 1 Greater Deity, 5 Lesser Deities and presumably a few Demi and Quasi-deities

Archdevils: 9 Lesser Deities, 99 Quasi-deities, Pit Fiend Legions and so forth.

No, you have to play fair here. Because 1st edition was "perfect" as it was, you can't add rules, and I can't find anything that says diabolic nobles get the powers of quasi-deities (not that quasi-deites had any specific powers other than immortality and the ability to ignore class restrictions).

So a greater god and five lesser gods against nine lesser gods - and the orcs are much more unified, used to fighting as a team and lacking the extreme rivalries of the devils. The diabolic legions have pit fiends, but the orcs have countless orcish souls, hardened veterans of a nigh-endless war with the goblins, who automatically regenerate every day. The orcish troops literally can't die until their masters do, and Gruumsh can't die at all. The most that can happen is that he is banished to his realm (his troops with him).

I'm not limiting him as much as I am playing him intelligently. Hes not going to pick a fight he can't win.

You're neutering him. Demogorgon can't upset a greater deity? He can't pick on the Norse for fear of Odin, he can't pick on the people of Oerth for fear of Pelor and Rao, he can't pick on the Finnish for fear of Ukko - exactly where does he acquire his reputation as a force of evil? He must do something other than quarreling with other Abyssal lords, or demons aren't as frightening as they say.

I have always found the Pantheons of the Megaverse supplement to be very evocative on this subject.

I was browsing through that the other day. Not that this has anything to do with anything, but it looks like they were trying really hard to upset Hindus with their Mecha-Shiva and so on. They really should have thrown in a Jesus with laser eye beams just to stay consistent. It's a very creative book, though it used Lovecraft as a bit of a crutch.

Well, the General only rules Gehenna, Infestix ruled Gehenna, Hades and Tarterus.

The General of Gehenna is the ultimate master of the yugoloth race (if you don't count his baernaloth "advisors"). They're a neutral race, so their hierarchy isn't perfectly orderly - Mydianchlarus and Bubonix have quite a bit of autonomy - but neither are they unruled as a race as the tanar'ri are. They do have a single greatest member who is the ultimate mastermind (baernaloths again excluded) behind all their plots, and that is the General of Gehenna. He is, in that sense, equivalent to Gygax's Infestix (Tharizdun - who is much the equivalent of the baernaloths - excluded).

I think they allied with him because they too wanted Tharizdun released.

There's something to that, but I think it's more that they saw Tharizdun's release as inevitable and wanted to make sure they had a place in the new order.

He rules, but hes more the head of government than a dictator with absolute power.

He's very much a dictator - in many ways he's the dictator, the one all others model themselves on. His expert manipulation of the other factions is what keeps him that way. His power may not be absolute, but as long as the other two factions are kept concentrating on one another he is absolutely the one in charge. It's not like anyone else gets a vote in his decisions - there's no parliament in Nessus (although there may be in Dis, seeing as Dispater has a Prime Minister).

First of all, a cursory glance at Nerulls 1st Edition stats tells us he is way more powerful than Anthraxus.

The level of autocracy in planar races ought to be consonant with their alignment - that is, very high in the lawful races (a single unquestioned ruler), mid-range in the neutral races (a ruler who permits a great deal of freedom), while the chaotic races are able to muster no autocrats at all, instead having several feuding powers (as with the tanar'ri and slaadi) or a purely symbolic head (as with the eladrins).

So if we have Archons, Guardinals and Eladrins for good. Demons, Daemons and Devils for evil, the Angels would seemingly be something else.

Angels (or aasimon) are servitors of the deities, rather than planeborne. They're equivalent to the servitors of the evil deities - Minions of Set, Helkyries of Hel, Visages of Orcus, and so on. They don't personify alignments; instead, they seek only to enact their masters' will.

Baatezu, tanar'ri, yugoloths, guardinals, archons, eladrins, slaadi, modrons, and rilmani personify the nine alignments. They have little to do with the gods, as the gods have little to do with their planes. The exception is Mount Celestia, where archons and aasimon share the same hierarchy, archons seemlessly promoted into agathions and devas.

Nerull could be daemonic in the same sense as the Baernoloths, who could be angelic counterparts rather than Archon/Guardinal/Eladrin counterparts.

Baernaloths are the primal manifestations of and progenitors of evil. If you want to compare them to something Gygaxian, they're most similar to Tharizdun himself. They have counterparts among the other manifestations - progenitors of law, chaos, and good, and probably balance as well. The other progenitors have not been detailed, unless the kamarel are the elder beings of Balance.

That chart only applies to the Spiritual Hierarchies, not deities (of other origin) though.

My problem is that the Spiritual Hierarchies are so weak compared to deities of other origin.

It ought to be something like:

Monarch of Demonium (one of the six-or-so greatest rulers): Greater Power
Prince (rules one layer or more): Demigod-Intermediate Power (highly variable, as befits the Abyss, and not necessarily correlative to number of layers ruled)
Lord (rules less than one layer): Quasi-deity (at best)
Archdemon (unique, powerful tanar'ri, like the nalfeshnee Lords of Woe or Red Shroud): Powerful, but not a god.

On the diabolic side, only Asmodeus is a greater power (perhaps Levistus too if he were freed), his closest rivals (Mephistopheles and Baalzebul) would be Intermediate, Mammon, Belial, the Hag Countess, and Dispater lesser powers, and Bel and Fierana both demigods. Their advantage is their relative unity and organization.

Among the yugoloths, the General of Gehenna should be treated as a greater god, and perhaps the Oinoloth to a lesser extent.

But I'm just musing aloud here. I don't like to define them that closely.

Why?

For the reasons I already enumerated, which you responded to with "absolutely." There are fewer planar lords than there are greater gods, yet the planeborne are more fundamental to the (standard) cosmology. The respective power levels should reflect that - if Set is picking a fight with Levistus, he's picking a fight with the layer of Stygia itself. His own realm isn't really part of Stygia in a real sense - he destroyed the layer's sentience within his domain, making it an extension of his own mind. But outside, he shouldn't have the advantages that greater gods normally have over lesser gods, even considering the (sensible) advantages Levistus has in his home realm - particularly considering Levistus is something of a sitting duck.

Its a very clear point of grammar as far as I can see.

"Few" means "Being more than one but indefinitely small in number." Nothing else modifies that. The first part of the sentence establishes that there is more than one greater god in the Abyss, while the second explains why there are not many greater gods in the Abyss.

I don't remember ever reading Gruumsh was jostling for control of the Hells?

That's why the Lords of the Nine ultimately drove them into Acheron.

Any deity can block Plane Shift to their realm (as per page 126 Manual of the Planes).

Lesser deities only have 80 spell levels to assign to magic modifications, so they have to be somewhat choosy. Remember how Fea defeated the goddess Yamara?

Once you get killed you are banished from the plane/world for a century.

Immortals have nothing but time.

The book mentions that such a being is weakened. I don't see how being twice as powerful is weakened. The being should have to rejuvenate its destroyed manifestation.

It explains exactly how they're weakened - they lose the ability to move anything outside their plane or grant spells. It doesn't say they're weakened in any other way. It says that planar travel is, for deities, like astral projection, so it's logical to assume they have a true form in their realm waiting for their spirit to rejoin it, as in the astral projection spell. This form, as described in the MotP, has twice the hit points of and many more spell-like abilities than the "avatar" they use outside their realm. Your assertion that a recently slain deity is helpless on his home plane contradicts Deities & Demigods' premise that it should be next to impossible for mortals to slay them there. From the context, the book is saying that if mortals manage to destroy a manifestation of a deity and follow them back to their home realms, they "should be dealt with severely, the god bringing to bear all the powers that the being has."

By following the silver cord Demogorgon would be transported directly to Heironeous place of rejuvenation.

That's extremely debatable. Heironeous will arrive in his realm before Demogorgon does, and the moment he steps back on his home plane his silver cord disappears.

Firstly they would have to find out, secondly, they would either have to locate Demogorgons rejuvenation manifestation hideout (which is likely to be very well hidden)

Wait, what? I thought you said that Demogorgon instantly arrived at Heironeous' hideout - why don't Rao, Vishnu, and Tyr do the same? You have to play fair. Either both groups instantly find their helpless enemies or neither of them do.

That rule always seemed to contradict Deities & Demigods (page 11) - we certainly never used it.

1st edition was "perfect," though, so for the sake of defending that point we have to play by the rules.

And yeah, it changed and evolved over time - it's not a monolith. Tiamat as she was introduced in oD&D isn't the same as Tiamat post-D&Dg isn't the same as Tiamat in the MotP. The rules do contradict each other. But if you want to take advantage of, for rhetorical purposes, all the cool realm-altering abilities the MotP gifted us with, then - as far as this entirely hypothetical debate goes - it's only fair to include the other parts as well.

The forces of good are not going to 'pull out all the stops to avenge Heironeous' if he 'started it'.

Perhaps not to avenge him, but remember that Demogorgon is, in your example, invading their territory. This can't be allowed. If you think that the hosts of Demonkind will be avenging an intervention into their territory, won't the hosts of Heaven do the same? Besides, they don't like Demogorgon.

I'd have Ravana as an Intermediate Power of Acheron.

Ravana's son Indrajit defeated Indra, who is an intermediate deity, by himself.

To be fair some of the Monster Manual Archdevil (or Demon Prince) stats didn't seem to fully make sense.

Well, that's what I've been saying.

I can't see him sneaking any in without being detected. Which will give Asmodeus ample time to prepare a welcoming committee.

Hextor, the Herald of Hell, knows the area, and many of his divine powers will work adequately to confuse and befuddle the Dark Lord's lesser minions. Plus, it's just a basic trope of the game that dungeons are solvable. I mean, if we're talking "powers far beyond mortal comprehension" I agree that nobody's getting into Malsheem without the Overlord's consent, but if we're talking "let's let gods be PCs" then a party of well-equipped, experienced divine adventurers ought to have a chance at winning.

remember Lesser Powers (and Demi-powers) can Summon (1d6 creatures up to 30 HD, 20 HD for demipowers) and Gate as their major abilities.

I was assuming that Asmodeus' monster stats described how his particular summoning abilities worked, but fair enough - we'll give him that, too. He rolls randomly, attempting for his mightiest minions, and gets one or two extra pit fiends (likely two, but it depends on his roll) or one diabolic noble (maybe Phongor). With whatever's left over maybe he can get an erinyes or two if he rolls high enough. I'm not exactly certain how to convert hit points into hit dice - do I assume they had average rolls (in which case, Phongor is too powerful for Asmodeus to summon) or that they rolled high? Do 1st edition monsters get constitution bonuses?

 

[BOZ]

get a room, you lovebirds. *throws popcorn at rip and UK, hoping the show will go on anyway*

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Rip!

No, you have to play fair here. Because 1st edition was "perfect" as it was, you can't add rules, and I can't find anything that says diabolic nobles get the powers of quasi-deities (not that quasi-deites had any specific powers other than immortality and the ability to ignore class restrictions).

If a mere demon lord, like Juiblex is a Lesser Power then the Dukes of Hell should also be considered Lesser Powers.

Personally though, I see them as quasi-deities, but thats just me. Regardless, the dukes of Hell are going to be a factor in the battle.

So a greater god and five lesser gods against nine lesser gods - and the orcs are much more unified, used to fighting as a team and lacking the extreme rivalries of the devils.

I don't know if they are used to fighting as a team. Likely Gruumsh, Baghtru and Ilneval. Remember also that a few of them don't have the Hells as their home plane.

The diabolic legions have pit fiends, but the orcs have countless orcish souls, hardened veterans of a nigh-endless war with the goblins, who automatically regenerate every day. The orcish troops literally can't die until their masters do, and Gruumsh can't die at all. The most that can happen is that he is banished to his realm (his troops with him).

Well we have to negate that 'can't be killed jive' for Gruumsh.

Anything where theres no risk is pointless.

You're neutering him. Demogorgon can't upset a greater deity? He can't pick on the Norse for fear of Odin, he can't pick on the people of Oerth for fear of Pelor and Rao, he can't pick on the Finnish for fear of Ukko - exactly where does he acquire his reputation as a force of evil? He must do something other than quarreling with other Abyssal lords, or demons aren't as frightening as they say.

I'm talking about picking a fight with him directly. Of course Demogorgon, or more likely his followers/servants, can be at odds with mortals who worship any of the norse gods.

I was browsing through that the other day. Not that this has anything to do with anything, but it looks like they were trying really hard to upset Hindus with their Mecha-Shiva and so on. They really should have thrown in a Jesus with laser eye beams just to stay consistent. It's a very creative book, though it used Lovecraft as a bit of a crutch.

I loved it...as you might imagine. It has that 'anything goes' approach. Prior to reading it I had never read Lovecraft or played Call of Cthulhu (even though I knew the inspiration behind the Old Ones), so many of the references seemed fresh to me.

The General of Gehenna is the ultimate master of the yugoloth race (if you don't count his baernaloth "advisors"). They're a neutral race, so their hierarchy isn't perfectly orderly - Mydianchlarus and Bubonix have quite a bit of autonomy - but neither are they unruled as a race as the tanar'ri are. They do have a single greatest member who is the ultimate mastermind (baernaloths again excluded) behind all their plots, and that is the General of Gehenna. He is, in that sense, equivalent to Gygax's Infestix (Tharizdun - who is much the equivalent of the baernaloths - excluded).

Thats one way of looking at it. Although I don't see the General as Infestix equal (though the point is moot I suppose).

He's very much a dictator - in many ways he's the dictator, the one all others model themselves on. His expert manipulation of the other factions is what keeps him that way. His power may not be absolute, but as long as the other two factions are kept concentrating on one another he is absolutely the one in charge. It's not like anyone else gets a vote in his decisions - there's no parliament in Nessus (although there may be in Dis, seeing as Dispater has a Prime Minister).

In the book I described the politics of Hell akin to a Feudal society with a King, but powerful noble lords who control ttheir own lands and pay him fealty. I don't think Asmodeus could overthrow one of the other factions and remain in power, but I think he could certainly defend against another faction.

The level of autocracy in planar races ought to be consonant with their alignment - that is, very high in the lawful races (a single unquestioned ruler), mid-range in the neutral races (a ruler who permits a great deal of freedom), while the chaotic races are able to muster no autocrats at all, instead having several feuding powers (as with the tanar'ri and slaadi) or a purely symbolic head (as with the eladrins).

Agreed. However, D&D cosmology isn't necessarily like this. Although you could argue Lucifer is the true master of Hell (did you ever read the old Dragon magazine article on him?).

Baernaloths are the primal manifestations of and progenitors of evil. If you want to compare them to something Gygaxian, they're most similar to Tharizdun himself. They have counterparts among the other manifestations - progenitors of law, chaos, and good, and probably balance as well. The other progenitors have not been detailed, unless the kamarel are the elder beings of Balance.

Wasn't there Baernoloth stats printed in Planescape (I vaguely recall them) but they were just total pants?

My problem is that the Spiritual Hierarchies are so weak compared to deities of other origin.

It ought to be something like:

Monarch of Demonium (one of the six-or-so greatest rulers): Greater Power
Prince (rules one layer or more): Demigod-Intermediate Power (highly variable, as befits the Abyss, and not necessarily correlative to number of layers ruled)
Lord (rules less than one layer): Quasi-deity (at best)
Archdemon (unique, powerful tanar'ri, like the nalfeshnee Lords of Woe or Red Shroud): Powerful, but not a god.

On the diabolic side, only Asmodeus is a greater power (perhaps Levistus too if he were freed), his closest rivals (Mephistopheles and Baalzebul) would be Intermediate, Mammon, Belial, the Hag Countess, and Dispater lesser powers, and Bel and Fierana both demigods. Their advantage is their relative unity and organization.

Among the yugoloths, the General of Gehenna should be treated as a greater god, and perhaps the Oinoloth to a lesser extent.

But I'm just musing aloud here. I don't like to define them that closely.

If the General off Gehenna rules an entire plane and Demogorgon, or Asmodeus for that matter, do not. Why should they all be of equal power?

For the reasons I already enumerated, which you responded to with "absolutely." There are fewer planar lords than there are greater gods, yet the planeborne are more fundamental to the (standard) cosmology.

Thats totally dependant upon an individual campaigns cosmology though. Its also dependant on what exactly makes a greater power (I wouldn't have Set as a greater power for instance).

The respective power levels should reflect that - if Set is picking a fight with Levistus, he's picking a fight with the layer of Stygia itself. His own realm isn't really part of Stygia in a real sense - he destroyed the layer's sentience within his domain, making it an extension of his own mind. But outside, he shouldn't have the advantages that greater gods normally have over lesser gods, even considering the (sensible) advantages Levistus has in his home realm - particularly considering Levistus is something of a sitting duck.

I suspect Sytgia will still be here long after Levistus is not.

"Few" means "Being more than one but indefinitely small in number." Nothing else modifies that. The first part of the sentence establishes that there is more than one greater god in the Abyss, while the second explains why there are not many greater gods in the Abyss.

I still don't see how you can interpret that sentence like that. If it didn't have the word 'would' in it I would agree with you...but it does.

Lesser deities only have 80 spell levels to assign to magic modifications, so they have to be somewhat choosy. Remember how Fea defeated the goddess Yamara?

Immortals have nothing but time.

So, try again in another 100 years. Demogorgon will be ready and better prepared.

It explains exactly how they're weakened - they lose the ability to move anything outside their plane or grant spells. It doesn't say they're weakened in any other way. It says that planar travel is, for deities, like astral projection, so it's logical to assume they have a true form in their realm waiting for their spirit to rejoin it, as in the astral projection spell.

That just seems innappropriate as far as I can see. They should be severely weakened, what you suggest is like a gentle slap on the wrist. The deity has to risk something.

This form, as described in the MotP, has twice the hit points of and many more spell-like abilities than the "avatar" they use outside their realm. Your assertion that a recently slain deity is helpless on his home plane contradicts Deities & Demigods' premise that it should be next to impossible for mortals to slay them there. From the context, the book is saying that if mortals manage to destroy a manifestation of a deity and follow them back to their home realms, they "should be dealt with severely, the god bringing to bear all the powers that the being has."

The book doesn't imply that at all, and it takes a whole new paragraph to divide being slain on a non-native plane and being slain on their native plane.

It certainly never says they should be powered up on their home plane directly after being killed on a non-native plane.

That's extremely debatable. Heironeous will arrive in his realm before Demogorgon does, and the moment he steps back on his home plane his silver cord disappears.

Exactly, thats why theres the miss chance, you only get a split second to act on it.

Wait, what? I thought you said that Demogorgon instantly arrived at Heironeous' hideout - why don't Rao, Vishnu, and Tyr do the same? You have to play fair. Either both groups instantly find their helpless enemies or neither of them do.

He arrives directly in Heironeous rejuvenation chamber (pending the successful mishap roll).

Heironeous would be rejuvenating, so he couldn't follow a defeated Demogorgons silver cord. So he won't know where his hideout is.

1st edition was "perfect," though, so for the sake of defending that point we have to play by the rules.

The cosmology was perfect, yes. But I can see a few improvements in the immortal mechanics.

And yeah, it changed and evolved over time - it's not a monolith. Tiamat as she was introduced in oD&D isn't the same as Tiamat post-D&Dg isn't the same as Tiamat in the MotP. The rules do contradict each other. But if you want to take advantage of, for rhetorical purposes, all the cool realm-altering abilities the MotP gifted us with, then - as far as this entirely hypothetical debate goes - it's only fair to include the other parts as well.

Even if we adhere rigidly to MotP for the purposes of the argument, once they incapacitate Gruumsh they could always launch a jihad on orcs everywhere so that when Gruumsh is back on his feet he is really weakened.

Perhaps not to avenge him, but remember that Demogorgon is, in your example, invading their territory. This can't be allowed. If you think that the hosts of Demonkind will be avenging an intervention into their territory, won't the hosts of Heaven do the same? Besides, they don't like Demogorgon.

Yes, but Heironeous attack was unprovoked. Demogorgons was merely retaliatory.

Ravana's son Indrajit defeated Indra, who is an intermediate deity, by himself.

I'd have Indrajit and Kumbakarna as Lesser Deities of Gehenna. As long as he wasn't fighting on Indra's home plane he would have a good chance.

Well, that's what I've been saying.

Yes but the problems seem more like errata in waiting than fundamental reversals of policy.

Hextor, the Herald of Hell, knows the area, and many of his divine powers will work adequately to confuse and befuddle the Dark Lord's lesser minions. Plus, it's just a basic trope of the game that dungeons are solvable. I mean, if we're talking "powers far beyond mortal comprehension" I agree that nobody's getting into Malsheem without the Overlord's consent, but if we're talking "let's let gods be PCs" then a party of well-equipped, experienced divine adventurers ought to have a chance at winning.

True, but its not going to be easy. Acererak was just a lich after all.

I was assuming that Asmodeus' monster stats described how his particular summoning abilities worked, but fair enough - we'll give him that, too. He rolls randomly, attempting for his mightiest minions, and gets one or two extra pit fiends (likely two, but it depends on his roll) or one diabolic noble (maybe Phongor). With whatever's left over maybe he can get an erinyes or two if he rolls high enough. I'm not exactly certain how to convert hit points into hit dice - do I assume they had average rolls (in which case, Phongor is too powerful for Asmodeus to summon) or that they rolled high? Do 1st edition monsters get constitution bonuses?

In 1st Edition you divide by 4.5 to get Hit Dice.