Fighter Subclass: The Bravura! (INT-based, tactical, non-magical)

[Guest 6801328]

4.) the action economy and shared spotlight. I think I would want to avoid stealing spotlight on a fellow player’s turn. But I’d very open to monkeying with the DM’s turns (NPC enemies, etc). I’m thinking of interceptions, defensive/offensive blocking, and sacking. I wonder whether some of these reactions could be conditioned on enemy actions (much like the discussion on saving throws versus aoes).

This is a great point. My original goal with this was to build a class that provides 'tactical' options without giving orders, inspiring, leading, etc. And one of the ways I wanted to achieve that was by messing with monsters, not other player characters. I need to remember that and find more ways to stay true to it.

Thanks for feedback. All good points.

 

[mellored]

1.) don’t talk yourself out of an interesting idea. I’ve seen some stuff that looks compelling, and then someone chimes in “what about booming blade or bravura3/druid17?” And yeah, ok, but let’s see how that idea stands on its own first without getting into the meta. And if it’s good, then let’s see about how it might fit nicely with the meta. Sometimes it’s as simple as linking something to something else. Like a weapon attack or to movement. Something that’s not a spell in any way. You know?

Just to be clear, I was never trying to talk him out of his idea. I very much support it.

I'm just trying to figure out of the bonuses should be 1d4, 1d8, +Int, 2+Int, Advantage, only in medium armor, or whatever.

To which, yes, i need to look at combo's.

2.) as an old school warlord fan, I do miss the inspirational healing. And of course that’s a hot point among a lot of people. I was thinking an interesting feature might be a single bonus feat: your choice between Healer and Inspiring Leader. I’m not insisting on anything, but darn it all if that doesn’t fill something I feel the Bravura is missing.

I agree there should be a healing option. I'm less of a fan of making a core ability. It can work as a contingency though.

Also, fighter's have bonus feats.

4.) the action economy and shared spotlight. I think I would want to avoid stealing spotlight on a fellow player’s turn. But I’d very open to monkeying with the DM’s turns (NPC enemies, etc). I’m thinking of interceptions, defensive/offensive blocking, and sacking. I wonder whether some of these reactions could be conditioned on enemy actions (much like the discussion on saving throws versus aoes).

I agree that the interuptions should be avoid stealing the spotlight, and as such, avoid any die rolling on your part. But I don't see any issue giving an ally a bonus to-hit/movement/attack/save.


That said, hitting a wizard or jamming your shield into a dragon mouth in order to disrupt his blast is pretty fun too.

Intercept Effect: When a creature with 5' of you casts a spell or uses a simlar effect that causes a saving throw, such as dragons breath attack, you can use your shield to reduce the potency of their effect by breaking their eye contact, interupt their chant, block the effecct, or other such action. If you have a shield equipped, you can use your reaction to reduce the DC of the effect by 1d6.

 

[Guest 6801328]

"When you are required to make a Dexterity saving throw, if you are successful you may shout a warning. Any of your allies who must also make the saving throw may attempt to dive out of the way: they add 1d4 to their saving throw, but end the turn Prone."

What I really want, but the language is awkward, is that even if you don't have to make the saving throw yourself you can still roll it in order to use this ability.

An alternative is to not require you to make the saving throw: "When you and/or any of your allies are required to make a Dexterity saving throw, you may use a reaction to shout a warning: anybody including you who dives out of the way adds 1d4 to their saving throw, but ends the turn Prone."

Is Prone too much of a penalty for +1d4? +1d6? Advantage feels like too much. I realize some Paladin auras grant Advantage to saving throws, but that's an entire level 7 ability. This is just one aspect of a level 3 ability.

What I like about this is that it isn't you doing something to your allies: it is their choice whether to take advantage of it.

The two things I still want to work on are:
1) Decide on debit vs. credit model. I'm trending back toward credit simply because I don't like that with the debit model you could easily get all your attacks, then all your reactions, and then all your attacks again by saving up points. That doesn't feel right to me.
2) Nail the list of contingencies. It's evolving in a good direction, but needs a lot of polishing.

Off to dinner...

 

[Guest 6801328]

How about changing:

"Bait and Switch: When an enemy makes an Attack of Opportunity against you, as a reaction you may lure that enemy into provoking its own Attack of Opportunity, by an ally you designate who is within melee weapon reach of the enemy."

so that it just keys off any melee attack:

"Bait and Switch: When an enemy attacks you with a melee weapon attack, as a reaction you may lure that enemy into provoking an Attack of Opportunity from one ally you designate. Once you use this ability you cannot use it again against the same creature."

Also, "Interceptor" (the one where you shoot arrows out of the sky) continues to bother me for both too complicated and too cinematic. What if it's a melee weapon deflection? "When a normal-sized missile weapon passes through a square that you can reach with your melee weapon, as a reaction you may try to bat the missile aside, subtracting 1d4 from the attack roll." What I like about this one is that it gives you and your allies a reason to try to position yourselves such that this trigger occurs. Now that's tactics. Amirite?

 

[mellored]

An alternative is to not require you to make the saving throw: "When you and/or any of your allies are required to make a Dexterity saving throw, you may use a reaction to shout a warning: anybody including you who dives out of the way adds 1d4 to their saving throw, but ends the turn Prone."

Is Prone too much of a penalty for +1d4? +1d6? Advantage feels like too much. I realize some Paladin auras grant Advantage to saving throws, but that's an entire level 7 ability. This is just one aspect of a level 3 ability.

I think prone is fun and let's it be a bit more powerful.
In addition to the die size, you can also adjust how many people (1 creature, Int creatures, everyone in the area), as well as range (with 5' including movement, or 30' shout), and the timing (before the roll, or after the results).

"When a creature casts a spell or uses an effect that requires a Dexterity saving throw, you can shout a warning. Each creature targeted by the spell, after they roll their d20 but before the effect is resolved, can choose to fall prone in order to add 1d6 to their results."

What I like about this is that it isn't you doing something to your allies: it is their choice whether to take advantage of it.

I do agree that letting your allies decided should be a general rule, however, I quite like the image of shoving someone out of the way of a fireball. Copying rogues evasion for instance...
"When a willing creature within 5' is subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can take your reaction to knock them prone and shield them from harm. They instead take no damage if they succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if they fail."

Hmm...

Dive on the Gernade. Heroic Sacrifice
You throw your body infront of an attack, absorbing the blast in order to protrect others. You automaticly fail your save and take maximum damage, everyone else has advantage on their save and takes half damage.

1) Decide on debit vs. credit model. I'm trending back toward credit simply because I don't like that with the debit model you could easily get all your attacks, then all your reactions, and then all your attacks again by saving up points. That doesn't feel right to me.

Only if you have high Int. (at least with the current itteration).
But your right, there is a risk of hogging too much of the spot light. Attacks take the same amount of time to resolve, whether it's 14 Dex with a shortsword or 20 Str with a battleaxe.

Hmm....
I'll have to come back to this.

"Bait and Switch: When an enemy attacks you with a melee weapon attack, as a reaction you may lure that enemy into provoking an Attack of Opportunity from one ally you designate. Once you use this ability you cannot use it again against the same creature."

That works. It's more general trigger that way.
Though, I would add a time frame. Just in case the monster runs away to fight another day.

i.e.
Once a creature falls for your ploy, he is immune to this effect for 24 hours.

Also, "Interceptor" (the one where you shoot arrows out of the sky) continues to bother me for both too complicated and too cinematic. What if it's a melee weapon deflection? "When a normal-sized missile weapon passes through a square that you can reach with your melee weapon, as a reaction you may try to bat the missile aside, subtracting 1d4 from the attack roll." What I like about this one is that it gives you and your allies a reason to try to position yourselves such that this trigger occurs. Now that's tactics. Amirite?

When your wielding a thrown weapon, you can give -1d4 at short range, and and -1d6 if within melee range?

That encourages tactics, but still alows low skill players to be effective.

 

[mellored]

2 half-baked thoughts...

Use action surge as the pool...

You can expend action surge to gain an extra reaction. This increases to 2 reactions if you have multi-attack, 3 reactions if you have 3 attacks, and 4 if you have 4 attacks.
You can use an action to regain action surge.


Debit + Refund attacks...
You can forgo an attack to gain a bonus reaction. If you do not use your extra reactions before the start of your next turn, you can use them to make a single attack on your next turn.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Dive on the Gernade. Heroic Sacrifice
You throw your body infront of an attack, absorbing the blast in order to protrect others. You automaticly fail your save and take maximum damage, everyone else has advantage on their save and takes half damage.

Earlier you mentioned Dragon's Breath. I was thinking of something like the above, but only applied to cone attacks. Then I decided that was too situational, and nobody would take it. Love the visual, though. (Works best with a shield, I think.)

Only if you have high Int. (at least with the current itteration).

I'm back to liking the idea of making max reactions = Int bonus, so don't feel the need to gate anything with Int.

That works. It's more general trigger that way.
Though, I would add a time frame. Just in case the monster runs away to fight another day.

Oh, yeah, forgot to add that. I had a similar mechanic in one of my monk subclasses: "Once you use this ability you cannot use it against the same creature until you have finished a short or long rest." Mostly just want to avoid spamming it because it's quite powerful.

Latest ideas:
"When an ally lands a critical hit against an enemy within 5' of you, as a reaction you may...."
Problems are that it's another one on an ally's turn instead of a monster's turn, and there's no tactics involved because you can't predict criticals. It's just luck. Thought I'd mention it anyway. (It would, however, make a nice ability for some kind of Rogue sub-class.)

"When an enemy within 30' moves, as a reaction you may also move. Any movement used is deducted from your movement on your turn, and will provoke Attacks of Opportunity."
More bookkeeping, but those who don't like it can choose other options. Not sure how useful it really is, but it seems kinda...well, tactical.

I'm not loving the 10th level ability, of using Help to grant an extra attack, mostly because the Samurai already has it. Instead add a new reaction available at level 3:
"When an ally misses a target that is within 5' of you, as a reaction you can enable the ally to re-roll the attack die."
So kind of like an extra attack, but only after a miss.

That also frees up level 10 for a non-reaction ability, more of which I think are needed. I'd like to bring back something that happens during initiative, even if it's just add your own Int bonus to initiative (on top of Dex)

So my latest list of favorite reactions:

• When an ally makes an attack or ability roll, you can Help (default).
• When an enemy attacks you, your ally can make an Attack of Opportunity
• When an ally misses, he/she can re-roll the attack,
• When Dex saves are required, allies (and you) can add 1d6 if they go Prone
• When an ally fails a Wisdom (or just Enchantment?) saving throw, they can re-roll (with Disadvantage?)
• When an enemy tries to make an Attack of Opportunity on somebody other than you, you can prevent it.

Still not sure about:

• Helping ranged attacks by allies
• Blocking ranged attacks against allies (of these, my favorite is using your melee weapon to swat missiles that come near you)
• Any sort of in-combat healing. It's not that I'm opposed to healing, but haven't seen anything I like narratively. Slapping a healing kit on somebody as a reaction feels a bit...well, in the same category of improbability as shooting arrows out of the sky.

How many should there be total? For some reason I was targeting 8. With 6 you'll get all of them by level 18.

(If I were playing this class I would go Protection Fighting Style and take both Sentinel and Shield Master feats. So many options! Plus a great bonus action.)

 

[mellored]

Latest ideas:
"When an ally lands a critical hit against an enemy within 5' of you, as a reaction you may...."
Problems are that it's another one on an ally's turn instead of a monster's turn, and there's no tactics involved because you can't predict criticals. It's just luck. Thought I'd mention it anyway. (It would, however, make a nice ability for some kind of Rogue sub-class.)

I agree, it's too specific.

I'm back to liking the idea of making max reactions = Int bonus, so don't feel the need to gate anything with Int.

It's nicer to have the gate up front. Where it's obvious.

I still think you should multiple reactions on a turn. 1/trigger. So you can help with multi-attack.
Otherwise you might have issues playing one of these in a small party. 2 guys vs 1 dragon doesn't give you a lot of turns.

"When an enemy within 30' moves, as a reaction you may also move. Any movement used is deducted from your movement on your turn, and will provoke Attacks of Opportunity."
More bookkeeping, but those who don't like it can choose other options. Not sure how useful it really is, but it seems kinda...well, tactical.

Seems fine.

Edit: Actually, IMO:
When you take a reaction, you may use a second reaction to move up to your speed. Any movement used is deducted from your movement on your turn, and will provoke Attacks of Opportunity

That way, it combo's with other reactions, at a cost.

That also frees up level 10 for a non-reaction ability, more of which I think are needed. I'd like to bring back something that happens during initiative, even if it's just add your own Int bonus to initiative (on top of Dex)

I agree with having something different.

Tactical Positioning.
At level 10, When you roll initiative and are not surprised, you can move up to half your speed before the battle starts.

[*]When an ally fails a Wisdom (or just Enchantment?) saving throw, they can re-roll (with Disadvantage?)

The others are good, but enchaments seem too specific for me.
Also, I like having Int and Cha saves somewhere in there as well. It's too niche to be by itself, but it can help broden another one a little.

[*]Helping ranged attacks by allies

Help already includes ranged attacks.

[*]Blocking ranged attacks against allies (of these, my favorite is using your melee weapon to swat missiles that come near you)

Protection style already includes ranged attacks.
Possibly...

Interception (Prerequisite: Protection Style)
You can use protection style on ranged attacks that pass with 5' of you. In addition, If you use protection style and the attack still hits, it deals half damage.

[*]Any sort of in-combat healing. It's not that I'm opposed to healing, but haven't seen anything I like narratively. Slapping a healing kit on somebody as a reaction feels a bit...well, in the same category of improbability as shooting arrows out of the sky.

Rapid Healer: (Prerequist healer feat)
When a creature takes damage, you can use the healer feat on them as a reaction.

Maybe some THP for the "inspiring" part?
Or letting someone spend their own Hit Dice?

Dunno. IMO, damage reduction works just as well, and is easier to explain. But I know some people are stuck on the idea that every party needs a "healer" and don't want to play a caster.

How many should there be total? For some reason, I was targeting 8. With 6 you'll get all of them by level 18.

I wouldn't set a target number. If there's a good idea, take it.
It's not they stopped making spells because a wizard only get's 25 to choose from. Or invocations because the warlock get's 8.

 

[FrogReaver]

2 half-baked thoughts...

Debit + Refund attacks...
You can forgo an attack to gain a bonus reaction. If you do not use your extra reactions before the start of your next turn, you can use them to make a single attack on your next turn.

I absolutely hate this.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The two things I still want to work on are:
1) Decide on debit vs. credit model. I'm trending back toward credit simply because I don't like that with the debit model you could easily get all your attacks, then all your reactions, and then all your attacks again by saving up points. That doesn't feel right to me.

How would that work?
The debit model, any attack you make, means one less reaction available to you. You can't "save up points" beyond what you get in a single turn.

Debit + Refund attacks...
You can forgo an attack to gain a bonus reaction. If you do not use your extra reactions before the start of your next turn, you can use them to make a single attack on your next turn.

That rather dilutes the debit model, and allows you to plan things for a very powerful nova in an ambush or similar situation.

The debit model allows for more powerful effects, at the cost of having to coordinate with your party, or have an actual plan to carry out - at the risk of not getting to use a held reaction if none of the party or monsters do something for which you know a contingency for.