Fighter to mage - the Str vs. Int/Cha trade-off is NOT equal

[Driddle]

I've read the DMG and articles addressing the abilities balance issue -- how strength is slightly more important to a character so a racial boost must be balanced by a cut in two other non-physical abilities. Still doesn't make sense.

To a character that's not combat-oriented -- focusing on more of the social interactions of the game -- intelligence and charisma go hand in hand. A penalty to both is totally unbalanced if you're working up a character who just happens to have been born a half-orc (for example). Is the strength boost a true benefit to such a character? Not when he's losing a skill point AND is assigned a penalty to his charisma skills each level.

If anything, the game design logic leading to the Str=Int+Cha equation (2 pt. = 2 + 2 elsewhere) subtly reveals the heart of D&D: It's a combat game, not a roleplaying game.

 

[Geoff Watson]

The 'balance' issue assumes characters play to their strengths. The half-orc stats are assumed to be balance for a fighter-type, not for a bard-type.

This shows that half-orcs are balanced for combat characters, not 'roleplaying' (ie. drama queen) characters.

If you choose a half-orc for a bard, you are purposely choosing a less powerful character, same as a sorceror who only chooses bad spells, or a fighter who only fights with bad weapons.

Geoff.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Mechanical balance in D&D revolves around combat, yes. That is only way to possibly compare apples to apples.

That said, I think that there is not necessity to hit the Half-Orc with the double whammy. If you are playing a Half-Orc as other than a melee specialist, you are already playing a suboptimal choice powerwise. I say just apply a -2 modifier to Int and leave the Cha alone.

 

[Torm]

Not to be a "drama queen", as Geoff put it , but there is an in-character, non-metagaming reason for this, too. Half-Orcs are genetically predisposed toward being stronger, and not as bright - same as gorillas in the real world, only less extremely so. Sure, every once in a while you may find one who breaks the mold and has a bit of charm and smarts, but for the most part, strength is, well, their strength. And this is expressed in the meta-aspects of the game by it being harder for you to roll up a character that, after racial modifiers, is still a suave sophisticate.

Also, in terms of roleplaying, if that is the character concept you're going for and you have a relatively cooperative DM, why not just have the character be a quarter-Orc, three-quarters Human - stats as a Human, looks enough like a Half-Orc to be treated as one, socially? (Maybe give up a starting feat to count as Orc-blood?) The rules should serve the roleplay, not the other way around, and as long as you have a legitimate character concept and aren't just trying to munchkin.....

 

[Torm]

I say just apply a -2 modifier to Int and leave the Cha alone.

To play devil's advocate - what if they later take levels in Fighter?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I find the whole "Str is the most valuable stat" argument in core D&D absolutely bizarre, especially as it applies to the poor half-orc.

Two points of Str represent, at the uppermost, a +1 to hit with melee weapons, a +1 to several skills of secondary importance, and +1.5 damage.

Two points of Con represent, at a bare minimum, +1 hit point per level and a +1 bonus to a save. It can also provide longer barbarian rages, or a bonus to a truly useful skill (Concentration).

Str is basically useless for wizards, sorcerers and druids, and of secondary importance to most rogues. Con is useful for absolutely everyone.

Why, then, is the half-orc more penalized than, say, the dwarf?

 

[Darkness]

To play devil's advocate - what if they later take levels in Fighter?

That depends on how they've distributed their ability scores. A half-orc bard could have a Str score as low as 12 (10+2race) or even 10 (8+2race).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Strength, in an "Average Gaming Session" - as in, one that involves a good mix of combat, roleplaying, and other challenges - will modify more rolls than any other ability.

Just compare the number of rolls modified by Strength in even a short combat vs. the number of rolls modified by Charisma or Wisdom in an otherwise average social encounter. You'll notice that, even if the outcome of each situation is equally important to the adventure at hand, you're using the Strength bonus much more often than the Wis or Cha bonus.

Thus, it is weighted more heavily than other ability scores.

 

[Buttercup]

I find the whole "Str is the most valuable stat" argument in core D&D absolutely bizarre, especially as it applies to the poor half-orc.

Two points of Str represent, at the uppermost, a +1 to hit with melee weapons, a +1 to several skills of secondary importance, and +1.5 damage.

Two points of Con represent, at a bare minimum, +1 hit point per level and a +1 bonus to a save. It can also provide longer barbarian rages, or a bonus to a truly useful skill (Concentration).

Str is basically useless for wizards, sorcerers and druids, and of secondary importance to most rogues. Con is useful for absolutely everyone.

Why, then, is the half-orc more penalized than, say, the dwarf?

I completely agree. I'm currently playing a dex based fighter with a 12 STR and (at 6th level) a 19 DEX. She is effective enough in combat that I won't be putting any points into STR as she levels. The main problem her low strength has caused her is carrying capacity.

For a character whose primary role isn't melee, DEX and CON are far more important--in combat and outside of it. Unless your character is going to wear heavy armor, STR just isn't all that.

 

[Psion]

I think, generally, if you expect balance equations to balance exactly at all times, you expect too much of the system. That said, it is made with certain assumptions in mind... yes, that combat is an important activity is a central part of that assumption. This was not a mystery.