BryonD said:
Are you assuming that a small power-up is needed or at least acceptable?
It is not needed. I'd say the core fighter is powerful enough for me, and I actually think it's an elegant design.
A small power increase is acceptable to me if it solves my annoyances with the fighter's feat progression. I could understand if others don't see it as a problem, or the increase in power as desirable.
However, I'm hoping these changes grant a smaller increase in power than the direct weighing of a "bean count" might imply.
Because you have given more than you took away.
They have gone from 18 "beans" to 21 "beans" + the minor dead level stuff (the dead level stuff is no issue in my mind though)
By RAW they did get the standard 7 feats (1,3,6,9,12,15,18) + 11 Bonus Feats = 18 total
Now they get 7 feats + 9 Bonus Feats + 5 Bonus Feat Equvalents (Focus, Specialization, Elusive Attack, Counter Attack, and Overwhelming Attack) = 21 total
I agree I have given more than I've taken away, but hopefully I haven't gone over the top. Your arithmetic is spot on, but I think you have to look very closely at the limitations of the abilities I've added, and that assigning them a bean count value using the currency of the Bonus Feat may be too simple to reflect the reality.
My feeling about elusive attack, counterattack, and overwhelming attack is that they are not worth 3 Bonus Feats as written in PHBII, particularly if all three are selected. My reasoning is that while giving players more choices in combat is certainly worth something, these abilities require fighters to give up something that is very good for something that is typically only decent.
In the PHB II they all cost a bonus feat plus every time they are used they cost something that is very significant to fighters, additional attacks. Even with all that cost, their return on investment is ok, but it's a diminishing return if you spend feats to take all three. You can only use one of them at a time, while with a bonus feat you have the potential to gain bonuses that can help you all the time and that can unlock more powerful feats at the top of a feat chain.
Additionally, these options require some skill and luck to use. Fighters might try to use counterattack and then not be able to get their second attack in. They might use overwhelming attack and roll very poorly and miss, suffering from putting all their eggs in one basket. They could use elusive attack when they really should be trying to finish off a foe with low hit points.
If I had to put a value on these three abilities together I'd have to say they are worth 1.5 feats, or "beans". That's why I love these abilities; they are fun to use, but I feel they just give fighters more options rather than more raw power. Admittedly though, I think clever players can get more mileage out of these. Smart players won't use elusive attack when they should be attacking all out, and they will make good use of overwhelming attack. More choices does indeed equal more power, but I figure the players are at least going to have to earn that power with some hard choices during combat, and that should be fun. In my opinion that makes these extra beans fair enough.
I would be curious to hear from anyone who has actually spent feats on these abilities, and if they felt they were worth it.
I'm counting combat feat emulation as a dead level freebie, which is a bit charitable.
You are indeed being charitable, quite rare for you
. CFE actually concerns me more than the others as far as balance. It's great when you consider how many powerful feats this could be used to emulate.
Restricting it to 1/day is not going to be much of a restriction for some players, as they only experience one combat per day. Others are going to feel it's worthless as they have many combats per day. I actually dislike the 1/day restriction because of this disparity but I love the effect of this ability, and feel like all player character fighters need it, in moderation. It's a "try before you buy" option for fighter feats, and adds an element of unpredictability fighters need in combat to stay fresh. I would value this as 1.5 feats, but I think the fighter really needs an ability like this that leverages all their feats. If I were to adjust the value of this class, I'd probably move this ability to replace a bonus feat slot somewhere; as low a level as I could stand though, because I like seeing it in play.
Weapon Training and Physical Prowess are weak enough to be worth zero feats in my opinion as well. Weapon Training is one of those things that helps players deal with bad decisions or with DM's or campaigns that just don't have what they want.
Of all the ideas in the WOTC article, Physical Prowess is one of the few I actually like, because fighters have so few skill points, and this sort of helps with that without giving them anything significant, so I expanded it. I have a hard time understanding why this alone would be something players would look forward to, though, which is why they are at levels single class fighters will be getting their regular feats (3rd, 6th, etc). Fighters look forward to feats, whether they are bonus feats or otherwise, so I don't think these levels are as dead as some might imply. The levels where the core fighter doesn't get any feats were the ones that started me to do this anyway.
I've technically nerfed the fighter at low levels by restricting their feat choices and delaying heavy armor till 2nd level (neglible that last part). At 5th level, I give them one of their bonus feats earlier than the core fighter. By my count, I'd say I'm also giving fighters the equivalent of an additional 3 "beans" spread out from 6th level to 16th.
Rather than bean counting, though, I think it's better to look at the actual specific effects of the changes.
- One effect is that some prestige classes might be qualified for a level earlier due to the level 5 feat, especially if I make all of the low levels ones bonus feats rather than specific feats like Weapon Focus/Specialization.
- At 6th level+, they will be able to increase their AC by sacrificing attacks. This is about like Combat Expertise, and will stack with it, but it gives up more than what Combat Expertise gives up, and gives back less, but has no Int requirement. Not bad at all, and I like how it scales up in power. Worth spending a feat on for some builds, but I'd take CE first.
- At 11th level+ they will be able to optimize their additional attacks so that they can avoid wasting them on minions and save them for foes charging in. No direct increase in power here, but it allows fighters to use what they have more efficiently. It also enables them to give up attacks for nothing, particularly if their DM metagames the encounter or if they are facing smart opponents who actually might anticipate such a tactic. Giving it to all fighters has the subtle effect of saying "if you're facing a tough fighter, expect the counterattack when they only attack once" possibly neutering this ability, or making it an effective deterrent, depending on how you look at it. Either way it requires thought, and I like that aspect. I don't think I'd spend a feat on it though.
- At 16th level+ they will be able to do good damage to high AC opponents. With Power Attack and an additional attack from haste this can be very good for burst damage and overcoming DR. Possibly too good, but I'm not sure. It may actually be worth more than 1 feat. I'm keeping it as is for now because of the high level requirement might make it ok.
- Clever players will make good use of Combat Feat Emulation at 7th level +, and if they qualify for lots of good "high level" feats that are great in specific situations, it's better. It's sort of a meta feat, and could be hard to predict in power level, thus the 1/day restriction. Again, another ability that requires thought during the fight, not during character creation.
Anyway, I'm not saying the system would break here, but I don't think they need more.
I have a strong feeling that adding more options for fighters during combat, even at the sacrifice of choices in bonus feat selection, will make it a more fun class without detracting from anyone else. When you get down to it, it's true they don't actually need anything, but I think the experience of playing a fighter or against one can be improved.
I'd also prefer that the Bonus Feat Equivalents just be Bonus Feats.
If I want my elf to take PBS and RS at L1, I think I should be able to do that.
I can understand that, and I expect my players might object to this as well. Forcing Weapon Focus and Specialization down players throats isn't going to work for many people when the core fighter has more options in feat builds.
I wanted to convert the first bonus feat into a specific feat to make the class easier on new players. I also liked the idea of making a multiclass dip into the fighter class less desirable. Weapon Focus seemed like the best candidate, because it is iconic to the fighter, easy to understand, and does not actually restrict the
style of the fighter. Weapon Specialization at 4th level was put in because I felt it would further simplify the feat selection at low levels.
Your elf could take Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus(Longbow) at first level, and it probably wouldn't cramp your character's build too much. It doesn't take long to get Rapid Shot at 2nd.
However, I get your point and it might indeed take too much away of the thing that appeals to players of fighters: lots and lots of configurability. I don't want to restrict strategic choices too much, and this may be going too far for too little benefit.
One earlier version of the class had Power Attack at first level and a bonus feat at 4th. My thinking was that all melee fighters could use it at all levels, it really helps at high levels, and it is sort of iconic to fighters. But really it's not iconic to all fighters, (it is more iconic for barbarians even) and it conflicts with various styles of fighter. The weapon feats are better for this, and I don't think they restrict the style of any fighter, but they do limit some of the strategic decisions.
One option is to make the first level feat a bonus feat, and keep the 4th level one as Weapon Specialization, without the need for the prerequisite. That's another buff to the class, but not a big one, especially considering I'm still restricting a feat choice. At that point though, it's really simplifying anything, it's complicating things, and wouldn't make anyone happy.
I'll have to think about it, but you may have convinced me on this point already, as I don't think my reasons for doing it this way are all that compelling, and I may be trying to change something here that is just fine.
You're on a good track, but those are my shots at it for now.....
Thanks, I do appreciate the feedback, as I do plan on using this class in some form close to this.
Obviously If you want something at every level then 18 beans won't get the job done. And if you want the fighter to get SOMETHING special at L1 then you really must have 21 beans since they already get the standard L1 feat. So something at around feat power for all 20 levels will require some degree of power up.
Yeah, I think that's true. Hopefully the things I've added aren't truly as powerful as 3 or 4 extra bonus feats, though I think it's hard to be accurate about the real effects using those terms.
