Fighter variant with smoother feat progression

[BryonD]

Interestingly enough I didn't agree with your valuation of Combat Feat Emulation. I think it's better than you do.

My assessment may come from the fact that I use action points and already allow this option to all characters. That plus my desire to reach out for middle ground....

I don't think we're in much disagreement regarding the overall power level here; I also think this fighter is more and better. I don't think it's so much better that it needs a warning label, but I'm not through with it either.

And rather than respond to every point, I'll agree that this sums it up.
You could get into a long debate about whether fighters need more power anyway. Particularlyat high levels where some claim they are beat out by wizards, some say they SHOULD be beat out by wizards and some say they hold their own.

So with that complete blur as a background, it doesn't make much sense to say that "this" power-up is wrong and "that" tweak is right. It is more a matter of "that is a powwer up, do you care?".

it probably makes it easier to meet certain prestige class requirements.

This is even more true in the cases where Dodge is a prereq.

 

[Gargoyle]

Yeah, I think I'm in agreement with everything you just said. I'll think about the class and will tweak it some more as soon as I get time.

 

[Vrecknidj]

This would probably be too ineffecient, but, we could do away with feats gained at character levels and just add feats to each and every class. We could add them in a "smooth" progression, and have some of them be "general" and some class-based.

For example:

Fighter feat progression (simple changes)
1: one general feat, one fighter feat
2: one fighter feat
3: one general feat
4: one fighter feat
5: one general feat
6: one fighter feat
7: one general feat
8: one fighter feat
9: one general feat

Rinse, repeat.

Wizard feat progression (minor changes, same total number of feats)
1: one general feat
2:
3: one general feat
4: one wizard feat
5:
6:
7: one general feat
8: one wizard feat
9:
10:
11: one general feat
12: one wizard feat
13:
14:
15: one general feat
16: one wizard feat
17:
18:
19: one general feat
20: one wizard feat

Dave

 

[Vrecknidj]

Of course, in the previous post, it would be just as easy to turn the wizard's feat progression into a "feat at every odd level, alternating between general and wizard feats."

Dave

 

[BryonD]

What happens when you multiclass?

 

[Nifft]

Here's one idea -- it's based on the thesis that the Weapon Specialization chain is weaker than most other things you could be doing with four extra Feats, and that the Core Fighter is weaker than most other classes (especially at high level), so if you dispute those points, this variant is not for you!

Definitions: Weapon Feat: Any one of the following: Exotic Weapon Proficency, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical. Basically, stuff that improves your ability with a single class of weapon. There are probably a bunch of PHBII feats that would also fit. Please, suggest them to me!

Fighter Feat: All the stuff that's normally a Fighter Bonus Feat, including the stuff listed in Weapon Feat above.

Fighter Variant:
1/ Bonus Weapon Feat
2/ Bonus Fighter Feat
3/ Bonus Weapon Feat
4/ Bonus Fighter Feat
... etc.

Every odd level, you get better at using a weapon. Every even level, you get extra combat tricks or you could get better at using a weapon.

Why this is somewhat weaker than Core Fighter (at level 1 only): You have fewer options. You cannot take e.g. Expertise and Improved Trip, or Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot.

Why this is stronger than Core Fighter (at level 3+): You have more total feats.

The expected game effect: Fighters will have the Weapon Focus -> Specialization chain with two types of weapons. 1st & 3rd level will be Weapon Focus levels, 5th & 7th will be Specialization levels, and so on. The generalist fighter would take one melee weapon and one ranged weapon, while a mounted combat specialist might take lance and longsword, and a whirlwind attacker might take glaive and armor spikes. Your chaingun-tripper would take exotic weapon prof (spiked chain) at 1st level and weapon focus at 3rd, but he'd have to gain weapon focus with a new weapon at 7th level.

Anyway -- one penguin's thoughts.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Gargoyle]

What happens when you multiclass?

Yeah, that kind of makes that particular idea hard to implement, although I liked his intentions there.

 

[Gargoyle]

Here's one idea -- it's based on the thesis that the Weapon Specialization chain is weaker than most other things you could be doing with four extra Feats, and that the Core Fighter is weaker than most other classes (especially at high level), so if you dispute those points, this variant is not for you!

Definitions: Weapon Feat: Any one of the following: Exotic Weapon Proficency, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical. Basically, stuff that improves your ability with a single class of weapon. There are probably a bunch of PHBII feats that would also fit. Please, suggest them to me!

Fighter Feat: All the stuff that's normally a Fighter Bonus Feat, including the stuff listed in Weapon Feat above.

Fighter Variant:
1/ Bonus Weapon Feat
2/ Bonus Fighter Feat
3/ Bonus Weapon Feat
4/ Bonus Fighter Feat
... etc.

Every odd level, you get better at using a weapon. Every even level, you get extra combat tricks or you could get better at using a weapon.

Why this is somewhat weaker than Core Fighter (at level 1 only): You have fewer options. You cannot take e.g. Expertise and Improved Trip, or Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot.

Why this is stronger than Core Fighter (at level 3+): You have more total feats.

The expected game effect: Fighters will have the Weapon Focus -> Specialization chain with two types of weapons. 1st & 3rd level will be Weapon Focus levels, 5th & 7th will be Specialization levels, and so on. The generalist fighter would take one melee weapon and one ranged weapon, while a mounted combat specialist might take lance and longsword, and a whirlwind attacker might take glaive and armor spikes. Your chaingun-tripper would take exotic weapon prof (spiked chain) at 1st level and weapon focus at 3rd, but he'd have to gain weapon focus with a new weapon at 7th level.

Anyway -- one penguin's thoughts.

Cheers, -- N

I guess this wouldn't be for me, because I think the weapon feats are quite valuable, even if players don't realize it. Bonuses to hit and damage make every single attack better, and fighters make a lot of attacks.

Still, this is an elegant idea; I like the simplicity of it. I just don't think it's what I'd want to do, either thematically or balance wise.

 

[Sadrik]

Here are my fighter classes that I came up with.

NPC Warrior
No change (1d8, 2 skill points, no bonus feats and good fort save)

Tough Warrior
1D12 HD
2 skill points per level
Feats as a fighter
Good Fort save
All Barbarian Rage abilities become feats with a BAB requirement equal to the level the ability was received and a chaotic alignment requirement.

Level	Abilities
1	Fighter Feat
2	Fighter Feat
3	DR 1/-
4	Fighter Feat
5	-
6	Fighter Feat
7	DR 2/-
8	Fighter Feat
9	-
10	Fighter Feat
11	DR 3/-
12	Fighter Feat
13	-
14	Fighter Feat
15	DR 4/-
16	Fighter Feat
17	-
18	Fighter Feat
19	DR 5/-
20	Fighter Feat

Weapon Master
1D10 HD
2 skill points per level
Feats as a fighter
Good Fort save
Must be non-chaotic 
When they select the feat weapon focus the weapon master gets a special benefit from the feat. As seen below. The weapon specialization and various other improved weapon focus and specialization feats are deleted from the game.

Level	Abilities	Focused Weapons
  1	Fighter Feat	+2 and +1 damage
  2	Fighter Feat	+3
  3	-		+4
  4	Fighter Feat	+6/+1 and +2 damage
  5	-		+7/+2 
  6	Fighter Feat	+8/+3
  7	-		+9/+4
  8	Fighter Feat	+11/+6/+1 and +3 damage
  9	-		+12/+7/+2 
 10	Fighter Feat	+13/+8/+3
 11	-		+14/+9/+4
 12	Fighter Feat	+16/+11/+6/+1 and +4 damage
 13	-		+17/+12/+7/+2
 14	Fighter Feat	+18/+13/+8/+3
 15	-		+19/+14/+9/+4
 16	Fighter Feat	+21/+16/+11/+6/+1 and +5 damage
 17	-		+22/+17/+12/+7/+2
 18	Fighter Feat	+23/+18/+13/+8/+3
 19     	-		+24/+19/+14/+9/+4
 20    	Fighter Feat	+25/+20/+15/+10/+5

Skilled Warrior
1d8 HD
6 skill points per level
Good Ref save
Light Armor proficiency only
*Can replace one of these bonus fighter feats with Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge (prerequisite Uncanny Dodge), or Evasion (prerequisite Uncanny Dodge). 
**Can replace one of these bonus fighter feats with Sneak Attack +1d6 or Flurry, Improved Flurry or Greater Flurry.

Level	Abilities
1	Fighter Feat
2	Fighter Feat*
3	Dodge bonus +1
4	Fighter Feat**
5	-
6	Fighter Feat*
7	Dodge bonus +2
8	Fighter Feat**
9	-
10	Fighter Feat*
11	Dodge bonus +3
12	Fighter Feat**
13	-
14	Fighter Feat*
15	Dodge bonus +4
16	Fighter Feat**
17	-
18	Fighter Feat*
19	Dodge bonus +5
20	Fighter Feat**

Arcane Warrior
1D10 HD
2 skill points per level
Feats as below
Good Fort save
Light armor proficiency, light shield and buckler proficiency only
Can select Wizard, Sorcerer or Warlock casting method.
Note if warlock is selected they do not gain the warlocks eldritch blast ability.
The Hexblade becomes a PrC.
Armored Caster- can wear light armor and/or a light shield or buckler without incurring an arcane spell failure chance.

Level	Abilities					Arcane Caster Level
1	Combat Casting feat, Armored Caster	–
2	Fighter Feat					–
3	-						–
4	Fighter Feat					0
5	-						1
6	-						1
7	-						2
8	Fighter Feat					2
9	-						3
10	-						4
11	-						4
12	Fighter Feat					5
13	-						5
14	-						6
15	-						7
16	Fighter Feat					7
17	-						8
18	-						8
19	-						9
20	Fighter Feat					10

Divine Warrior
1d10 HD
2 skill points per level
Feats as below
Good Fort save
Can select Cleric or Druid- If cleric at first level they get one of their deities domains. Paladin abilities become Divine Feats for the most part.

Cleric Warrior
Level	Abilities						Divine Caster Level
1	Aligned Aura, 1 Domain				–
2	Fighter Feat						–
3	-							–
4	Fighter or Divine Feat, Turn/Rebuke Undead	0
5	-							1
6	-							1
7	-							2
8	Fighter or Divine Feat				2
9	-							3
10	-							4
11	-							4
12	Fighter or Divine Feat				5
13	-							5
14	-							6
15	-							7
16	Fighter or Divine Feat				7
17	-							8
18	-							8
19	-							9
20	Fighter or Divine Feat				10

Druid Warrior
Level	Abilities 						Divine Caster Level
1	Wild Empathy					–
2	Fighter Feat						–
3	-							–
4	Fighter Feat, Animal Companion			0
5	-							1
6	Wild Shape 1/day					1
7	-							2
8	Fighter or Wild Feat					2
9	-							3
10	Wild Shape 2/day					4
11	-							4
12	Fighter or Wild Feat					5
13	-							5
14	Wild Shape 3/day					6
15	-							7
16	Fighter or Wild Feat					7
17	-							8
18	Wild Shape 4/day					8
19	-							9
20	Fighter or Wild Feat					10

 

[maggot]

Here's one idea -- it's based on the thesis that the Weapon Specialization chain is weaker than most other things you could be doing with four extra Feats, and that the Core Fighter is weaker than most other classes (especially at high level), so if you dispute those points, this variant is not for you!

I don't think the Weapon feats are weaker the first time you take them. Actually they are quite strong and I've seen many characters take 4 levels of fighter just to get Weapon Specialization.

But weapon feats get weaker when you take them multiple times. The first Weapon Focus is very useful, but the second one is less so, and the third one even less than that. So you could exploit this in your class design.

1 - Bonus Fighter Feat
2 - Bonus Weapon Focus Feat
3 - Bonus Fighter Feat
4 - Bonus Weapon Focus Feat
5 - Bonus Fighter Feat
6 - Bonus Weapon Focus Feat
7 - Bonus Fighter Feat
8 - Bonus Weapon Specialization Feat
9 - Bonus Fighter Feat
10 - Bonus Weapon Specialization Feat
11 - Bonus Fighter Feat
12 - Bonus Weapon Specialization Feat
13 - Bonus Fighter Feat
14 - Bonus Greater Weapon Focus Feat
15 - Bonus Fighter Feat
16 - Bonus Greater Weapon Focus Feat
17 - Bonus Fighter Feat
18 - Bonus Greater Weapon Focus Feat
19 - Bonus Fighter Feat
20 - Bonus Greater Weapon Specialization Feat

This fighter has a bunch of extra feats, but they are spread around at least three different weapons. (If you want to get a Weapon feat at the first level possible, you will probably end up specializing in four weapons.) Pretty good for a combat master.

That said, the 20th level feat is a bit lame for that level, so I might put another ability at that level.