Fighter vs. Barbarian

[ProfessorCirno]

Sorry, but represent rage powers with rage swimming only is asinine.

One both core and APG are filled with good rage powers. Bonus to maneuvers and strenght checks, maneuvers + damage, pounce, mount boosting, control effects based on terrain and fear, natural weapons, anti caster feats, hit-boosting feats, saves vs spells from +7 to + 13 at level 20.

See, here's the thing - most of that is still utter rubbish.

These are rage powers. Where's the primal anger? Where's the rich narrative power? Where's the mythological roots? So many rage powers are little more then a small bonus while attacking.

Yeah, raging climber, swimmer ect sould have been merged in one. But Barbarians and Rage powers are far more than that.

God, I wish so.

And sincerely, Cirno, you always say "deat to alignments", "death to classes", death to this, death to that. Just play another game if you don't like it, and don't even bother to take a look with a slight deep to its features.

I've never said death to classes :U

Beyond that, I'm allowed to see flaws in a game I like. I'm not binary. There's a place between "HATE" and "LOVE UNCONDITIONALLY" For god's sakes, man, if there were no flaws ever in 3.x then Pathfinder would've never even been made. Finding and discussing these flaws is what leads to progress - and what leads to a better game.

 

[Kaiyanwang]

S
These are rage powers. Where's the primal anger? Where's the rich narrative power? Where's the mythological roots? So many rage powers are little more then a small bonus while attacking.

Could you please bring examples of the mythological roots?

Beyond that, I'm allowed to see flaws in a game I like. I'm not binary. There's a place between "HATE" and "LOVE UNCONDITIONALLY" For god's sakes, man, if there were no flaws ever in 3.x then Pathfinder would've never even been made. Finding and discussing these flaws is what leads to progress - and what leads to a better game.

I agree with you that criticism is the base of improvement. Nevertheless, mine was just an observation based on the fact that you seemed, reading this and other posts (my mistake perhaps) that you considered useless a lot of things that are iconic of the game, so I asked essentially "if you dislike Dragons and hate Dungeons, why play D&D?".

But I see your point now. Please bring example of what would you do as rage power.

StreamOfThe Sky: I see - you mean, forcecage is nerfed now - I admit that since there is a save the cost could have been dropped.

Nevertheless, IMHO, is not so easy break it. Hardness 30. Blocks ethereals. 500 GP means you just use it more rarely- no spam. Can used better (IMHO) out of the box compared to polymorph - just trap something very nasty and spam dominate until the 1. Maybe with dimensional lock. Things like this.

Remeber: Baleful Polymorph needs two saves to hit really hard, and has SR.

But I can see how you see it as a double standard... I suppose that make it spammable could have been annoying.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Cu Chullainn would literally transform into a horrible monster when he went into his warp spasms

It's more of a problem I have with the idea of non-casters being forced entirely into being a "mundane" in a world of "supernaturals." Going into a rage should be more then just a bonus to combat, it should have a bigger narrative power. Creating shockwaves and disrupting the ground by slamming into it, ignoring DR and hardness completely, leaping impossible distances, commiting amazing and impossible feats of strength. Heck, Faenor is filled with such passion that when he dies his body spontaniously combusts.

At level 20 a raging barbarian should be a horrifying force of natural destruction, a towering behemoth on the battlefield.

Currently he, well, he gets +8 to strength and constitution!

 

[Mojo_Rat]

I took raging leaper on my panther totem themed barbarian, I had a big list of rage powers to finish the theme but died at level 8 to phantasmal killer. I can probably come up with a fun savage grappler ape totem themed chR I might take raging climber with. bit our game is in a jungle right now so you can use climb. if I have done games with a lot of water in the past but I agree the swim one is a bit week. a raging athlete power would be nice.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

To be fair, I think the issue with the swimming power is less the rage power and more that Paizo simply didn't cull and combine the skills enough.

I stand steadfast that swimming does not need to be a separate skill

 

[Kaiyanwang]

Cu Chullainn would literally transform into a horrible monster when he went into his warp spasms

So try out either a Beast Totem+ Ferocious Bite or a Fiendish Totem Barbarian.. add in Terrifying Howl.

+8 Constitution means 80 HP at leel 20... but his is on top of d12 + standard constitution. And DR of 5/-, 10/- or features and rage powers able to absorb damage. In top of powers to absorb spell damage and to get bonuses to saves.

+8 Strenght means +4 hit + 4/6 damage, but is on the top of all sort of things. A barbarian can get str 40 ragin at that level.

Add in strenght surge and greater grapple. With the ferocious bite above, you can get a +61 to a grapple check in one round. One could use surprise accuracy and few bonuses for a + 46 in one round, and then use the +20 of SS for the CMD the subsequent round to avoid enemies escape.

Take a look to high CR monsters... these numbers (barring FoM but no perfect tactic exist) are comparable.

Add in powers to smackdown, during a full attack or a sudden, unexpected AOO, enemies around, or to throw obects, or to destroy things ignoring hardness. Adamantine Axes, Walls.. everything broken.

IMHO, this represents quite well a towering behemoth of the battlefield.

Not to say that it couldn't be done better (see the athlete powers, or the fact that guarded life should have been a mechanic inherent to rage and I freaking hate patch feats ).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

To be fair, I think the issue with the swimming power is less the rage power and more that Paizo simply didn't cull and combine the skills enough.

I stand steadfast that swimming does not need to be a separate skill

I disagree, swimming when it does come up is HUGE. And other than being in generally well conditioned good shape (str score), swimming hardly requires the same things as climbing. I wouldn't have minded seeing jump and climb merged into athletics and a single rage power to benefit jump, climb, and swim. But I do prefer swim as its own skill.

I think the biggest issue is how the very limited rounds/day aspect of rage makes those powers less useful (particularly swimming), even if they were merged into one power. I was considering a rule for Bards to use Countersong, Distract, and Fascinate (maybe some others) to be able to use those performances for up to 10 consecutive rounds and only expend 1 round of performance for the day (if you want to use Suggestion a second time w/ fascinate, you'd have to burn a second real round of performance per day, etc...), for as long as you keep the song going without stopping (so if it went 29 rounds straight, you'd lose 3 rounds of performance). Maybe I could houserule something similar for crappy rage powers mainly used for out of combat situations.

 

[pawsplay]

Cu Chullainn would literally transform into a horrible monster when he went into his warp spasms

It's more of a problem I have with the idea of non-casters being forced entirely into being a "mundane" in a world of "supernaturals." Going into a rage should be more then just a bonus to combat, it should have a bigger narrative power. Creating shockwaves and disrupting the ground by slamming into it, ignoring DR and hardness completely, leaping impossible distances, commiting amazing and impossible feats of strength. Heck, Faenor is filled with such passion that when he dies his body spontaniously combusts.

At level 20 a raging barbarian should be a horrifying force of natural destruction, a towering behemoth on the battlefield.

Currently he, well, he gets +8 to strength and constitution!

See, I think the wildly, over the top supernatural rage should be a character development option. I hate, hate, hate it as a default. I hate the whole idea so much I wrote an entire book of classes devoted to mundane characters, and debunking the idea you need Dragonball Z type powers to be competent at your chosen role. In fact, I think the barbarian leans too hard on the rage ability, and it's only gotten worse with support material and the Pathfinder iteration. I don't have a problem with angry swimming, but I really wonder why the barbarian can't just be a good swimmer, period.

 

[frankthedm]

debunking the idea you need Dragonball Z type powers to be competent at your chosen role.

I'm thinking their argument is not so much a question of "competency" but more an issue of style.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

See, I think the wildly, over the top supernatural rage should be a character development option. I hate, hate, hate it as a default. I hate the whole idea so much I wrote an entire book of classes devoted to mundane characters, and debunking the idea you need Dragonball Z type powers to be competent at your chosen role. In fact, I think the barbarian leans too hard on the rage ability, and it's only gotten worse with support material and the Pathfinder iteration. I don't have a problem with angry swimming, but I really wonder why the barbarian can't just be a good swimmer, period.

I'm thinking their argument is not so much a question of "competency" but more an issue of style.

Yeah, more or less. I don't mind a gritty, bronze era style barbarian - I've been thinking of giving Runequest (Mongoose edition) a go, after all - but D&D is stylishly everywhere, with ren-era bards, medieval clerics who can literally high five God, super powerful wizards, and mutant sorcerers.

I just feel many of the rage powers don't give as much oomph as I'd like them to.