Kaiyanwang
Adventurer
Swim is Str based. Barbarians ARE good swimmers. You take the rage power to be an outrageously good swimmer.
Fighter vs. Barbarian
- Thread starter StreamOfTheSky
- Start date
Flatus Maximus
First Post
Did you see the "Heart of the Fields" Alternate Racial Trait for Humans? (APG, p. 23.) Do you need to ignore the fatigued condition more than once per day?
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
To Rage Hop? Yes. The whole trick is that you can both end and start a rage as a free action (so it doesn't hinder full attacking or even using immediate action rage powers), but you can't enter rage while fatigued. And ending a rage makes you fatigued for 2x the # of rounds you had just raged (ie, minimum 2). You could do 1 round rage, 2 rounds fatigued before 17 I suppose. But spending 2/3 of the combat sucking seems like a poor plan to me. A one/day ignore fatigue isn't good enough, you would want to be able to hop in and out of rage many times, if not the ultimate potential of once each round.
Now, I was excited at the prospect of doing this 10 levels earlier as a Barbarian 6 / Horizon Walker 1 (with Desert mastery). But PF's completely changed how the class works and nerfed the best of the 3E mastery benefits (including desert), so that's no longer viable. Which is probably a good thing.
I suppose the REAL way to pimp/abuse the rage system in PF would be if your DM allows you to port in the Warforged race from Eberron...
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
So you're correct.... 3 levels in HW for Fatigue immunity, overall character level 9. Interesting...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/horizon-walker
Tovec
Explorer
Just another thought.
What about calling them Barbarian Powers instead of Rage Powers. Then changing anything that is 'while ranging' to 'any time'. Simple examples are Animal Fury, gaining a bite all the time. Raging Swimmer allows them to use their level as a bonus outside combat. Additionally, things that are more than once but not constant during rage become only during rage - Guarded Stance for example gaining a +1 dodge bonus while raging.
This wouldn't seriously unhinge or unbalance the game. It gives the barbarian more options for non-rage powers. If you wanted to go one step further any rage power that is usable once per rage make it usable once per day Outside rage too. I think that might be going too far but I digress.
Thoughts?
Edit: also not sure how this would affect the majority of APG rage powers, only looked at the Core ones.
What about calling them Barbarian Powers instead of Rage Powers. Then changing anything that is 'while ranging' to 'any time'. Simple examples are Animal Fury, gaining a bite all the time. Raging Swimmer allows them to use their level as a bonus outside combat. Additionally, things that are more than once but not constant during rage become only during rage - Guarded Stance for example gaining a +1 dodge bonus while raging.
This wouldn't seriously unhinge or unbalance the game. It gives the barbarian more options for non-rage powers. If you wanted to go one step further any rage power that is usable once per rage make it usable once per day Outside rage too. I think that might be going too far but I digress.
Thoughts?
Edit: also not sure how this would affect the majority of APG rage powers, only looked at the Core ones.
re
Are you still using only core?
The barbarian I'm dealing with sprouts spikes all over his body and grows horns. He hits like a vicious truck, has 5/-DR at lvl 8, and more hit points by 25 points than the fighter. He's extremely hard to deal with. He is definitely a vicious force of destruction.
I figure he'll be much worse at lvl 20.
I'm not seeing the problem with the barbarian. He's a load to handle as a DM.
Though I do agree some of the powers are dumb ones that no one will take like the swimming and climbing rage powers. They should have focused all the rage powers on combat like they mostly did in the APG.
Cu Chullainn would literally transform into a horrible monster when he went into his warp spasms
It's more of a problem I have with the idea of non-casters being forced entirely into being a "mundane" in a world of "supernaturals." Going into a rage should be more then just a bonus to combat, it should have a bigger narrative power. Creating shockwaves and disrupting the ground by slamming into it, ignoring DR and hardness completely, leaping impossible distances, commiting amazing and impossible feats of strength. Heck, Faenor is filled with such passion that when he dies his body spontaniously combusts.
At level 20 a raging barbarian should be a horrifying force of natural destruction, a towering behemoth on the battlefield.
Currently he, well, he gets +8 to strength and constitution!
Are you still using only core?
The barbarian I'm dealing with sprouts spikes all over his body and grows horns. He hits like a vicious truck, has 5/-DR at lvl 8, and more hit points by 25 points than the fighter. He's extremely hard to deal with. He is definitely a vicious force of destruction.
I figure he'll be much worse at lvl 20.
I'm not seeing the problem with the barbarian. He's a load to handle as a DM.
Though I do agree some of the powers are dumb ones that no one will take like the swimming and climbing rage powers. They should have focused all the rage powers on combat like they mostly did in the APG.
I should have known you were more of a rule abuser than a role player. Always looking for some angle to abuse the intent of the rules by trying to make a DM live by the exact wording.
That's while we'll never see eye to eye. You try that Horizon Walker tactic and I'd house rule it away right quick by adding the simple line "Does not work for effects like Barbarian Rage". Same with the warforged.
I can't stand people trying to circumvent intent, especially when it perverts the game into an exercise in game mechanic manipulation.
Yes. History does have something to do with it. Without history, none of these games would have even been made. Where you do you think so many of these archetypes come from?
History, mythology, fiction, and popular culture. It's a smorgasbord of all of it.
Did you forget the various inspirations for the game? History being a major inspiration.
I prefer simulationist. So it is a matter of preference. I'm happy that Pathfinder leans towards simulationist over gamist.
I consider it my preference. It has nothing to do with "inherently better". I'm glad Pathfinder strays more towards simulation versus gamist philosophies. It's why I play them over 4E.
Death is an aspect of the game. It should not be taken out.
Using a dangerous core ability like Rage should put you at risk. Better hope your healer is good at their job.
From my experience the barbarian rarely goes unconscious. He mashes things apart. He is a vicious war machine that is very hard to bring down because of all the extra healable hit points. Which are much better than temporary.
I'd really like to see how often the unconscious mechanic comes into play and kills the barbarian. So far it hasn't been an issue at all in my game. The barbarian is rarely brought to lethal hit point levels and then knocked unconscious. He murders everything before that happens.
DR and massive hit points are in general as good, if not better than, armor class. Chain Shirt is +4 armor versus Chainmail or BP which is +6. So +2 better. And Heavy armor is only +3 better than the best medium armor. So what are you trying to illustrate?
Unless they are of course one of those players that searches around for every mechanical advantage. Which isn't much encouraged by either the game designers or in my campaign.
The guys always looking to squeeze every mechanical advantage out of the game are usually very campaign specific. And more interested in mechanical manipulation than role-playing. Which isn't my cup of tea. Not why I play RPGs.
Prove that rage is a weak ability. Prove it. And I don't mean prove it has weakness like getting hit with a sleep spell while dangerously close to death, a very specific situation. And anything that can knock a barbarian down is going to outright kill a fighter, ranger, or any other class in the game. So not quite getting how the hit points are a problem.
Prove that rage is generally a weak ability compared to others. Having a weakness and being weak are entirely different. The fighter has a weakness as well. Take his weapon out of his specialized weapon out of his hands and he is weaker too. The barbarian can pick up any weapon, even a tree branch, and be bashing away while raging. Rangers are weak against their non-favored enemies. Having a weakness does not make an ability weak.
I know I can't prove it. The barbarian in my group rips people apart and is one of the most dangerous in my group. He's hard to kill. Does a ton of damage. And hasn't had a problem yet.
If the equally geared fighter and barbarian are fighting at lvl 20, I'm not sure who I would put my money on. It would be a tough fight to say the least.
Like I said, rage isn't broken. Some people want to have no chance of failure or any weakness. So they come up with some rare situation and make it seem as though that somehow makes the entire ability weak or useless. I don't see it. Don't agree with it.
I like that rage stops when unconscious. Seems appropriate. And gives the barbarian a weakness that can be exploited. Just like taking a fighter's favored weapon or sending enemies that aren't favored against the ranger. Gives DMs a weakness to exploit and we need that sometimes when players are trying to min/max to the point where they have no weaknesses and do everything they can to do the most possible damage.
I don't know if you realize it, but it's annoying to have players like that as a DM. Most DMs enjoy the story telling aspect of the game. When they run a game with a group of players that are mainly interested in mechanical manipulation, it makes our jobs that much harder. I know Adventure Paths are not designed with the min/maxing in mind.
So it's up to us DMs to keep that kind of stuff in line. I'm glad Paizo is helping a little bit tossing in things like unconscious barbarian boy doesn't get to have rage spasms while laying unconscious on the ground. I hate stupid things like that in a game that don't make sense.
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re
My main offense was stating the current rage wasn't "right" or that it was "broken". Sorry, in a role-playing game those words don't exist. There is the method used to simulate the power, end of story. Sometimes it hits perfect in terms of gamist and simulationist. Sometimes it leans a little one way or the other. Sometimes something is flat out changed for mechanical reasons like the old Haste. It was appropriate that a spellcaster could cast faster, it was a good simulation. But it was far too overpowered in actual play. So that was a pure mechanical change to ensure arcane casters couldn't annihilate everything in one round. That's the nature of a pen and paper RPG. No "right" and "wrong", only rules and how they work during play.
That being said. I don't like the idea of barbarians dying when knocked to negative 1 or more hit points from damage in battle.
And I don't like barbarians maintaining rage while unconscious.
Neither fits the archetype of the berserker.
I also don't like making my player take two feats like Endurance and Diehard. I've thought about historical barbaric groups and there were some berserkers that were fat, lazy warriors with bad tempers. Endurance implies being in good physical shape, which isn't required of a berserker. So it doesn't fit.
So I'm rolling with this in my house rules to get the feel I want.
Rage to the Death (Ex): At 1st level a barbarian gains this power. While raging a barbarian at 0 to negative con hit points can continue to fight. He can move without taking any hit point damage, but every attack he makes causes 1 hit point of damage. He is in a death frenzy and knows to fall is to die. If he reaches a negative hit point total equal to his constitution score, the barbarian dies. His instinct to survive while in this state does allow him to drink a healing potion or use any magic item on his person solely to heal himself, but otherwise has all the limitations of normal rage.
Done with the debate. Problem is solved for my campaigns to my satisfaction. As in it is "right" for my campaign and the feel I want barbarians to have.
My main offense was stating the current rage wasn't "right" or that it was "broken". Sorry, in a role-playing game those words don't exist. There is the method used to simulate the power, end of story. Sometimes it hits perfect in terms of gamist and simulationist. Sometimes it leans a little one way or the other. Sometimes something is flat out changed for mechanical reasons like the old Haste. It was appropriate that a spellcaster could cast faster, it was a good simulation. But it was far too overpowered in actual play. So that was a pure mechanical change to ensure arcane casters couldn't annihilate everything in one round. That's the nature of a pen and paper RPG. No "right" and "wrong", only rules and how they work during play.
That being said. I don't like the idea of barbarians dying when knocked to negative 1 or more hit points from damage in battle.
And I don't like barbarians maintaining rage while unconscious.
Neither fits the archetype of the berserker.
I also don't like making my player take two feats like Endurance and Diehard. I've thought about historical barbaric groups and there were some berserkers that were fat, lazy warriors with bad tempers. Endurance implies being in good physical shape, which isn't required of a berserker. So it doesn't fit.
So I'm rolling with this in my house rules to get the feel I want.
Rage to the Death (Ex): At 1st level a barbarian gains this power. While raging a barbarian at 0 to negative con hit points can continue to fight. He can move without taking any hit point damage, but every attack he makes causes 1 hit point of damage. He is in a death frenzy and knows to fall is to die. If he reaches a negative hit point total equal to his constitution score, the barbarian dies. His instinct to survive while in this state does allow him to drink a healing potion or use any magic item on his person solely to heal himself, but otherwise has all the limitations of normal rage.
Done with the debate. Problem is solved for my campaigns to my satisfaction. As in it is "right" for my campaign and the feel I want barbarians to have.
