Fighter's shouldn't have to suck

[Jon_Samuelson]

First things first I want to point out that I LIKE playing a Fighter class character. It's just my style. But I was hoping I could get some input from you guys about the general imbalance between melee characters and spell casters. I don't want this to turn into some sort of "Fighters suck" flame fest because, as I mentioned, I like playing a fighter.

My character:

Level: 6 Fighter​

Abilities: Str(16), Dex(14), Con(18), Int(13), Wis(10), Cha(7)​

AC/HP: 24/64​

Weapon: +1 Silver Dwarven Waraxe​

Attack Roll: +11/+6​

Damage: d10+5​

Feats: Dodge, Toughness, Endurance, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Iron Will, Power Attack​

My problem:

My main issue is how nerfed Fighters are compared to spell casting classes, and I'm curious of some of your opinions on the matter of how a DM could plan encounters better because of the imbalance. I understand that as a Fighter my main place in combat is to act as a shield for the spell casters. To block melee combatants from getting to them so that they can get their Fireball on, and I'm okay with that. I like playing a fighter.​

But the fact that my party druid gets to cast a buff spell on himself, and then wildshape into a giant effing dinosaur, has an AC of 31, and suddenly one of the guys I'm supposed to be protectiing is WAY better than I am at what my class is supposed to be the best at. And then my party Gnome Illusionist polymorphs himself into a damn Manticore and suddenly he's better than I am too.​

Moreover being as melee combat is my thing, my best bet to do any damage to the things we're fighting is to hit it with my axe. But more often than not the things that we're fighting are so big and so strong that only a fool would rush into hit it rather than peg it from range with a bow, which I'm not NEARLY as good at. So then I'm stuck sitting back shooting an arrow at something with my dick in my hand while the Mage casts Scintillating Sphere on a 40' block for 8d6 damage. The Druid cast entangle and then blasts everything with lightning bolts from the sky. And the Illusionist casts "Fly" on his donkey and swoops overhead doing his flamethrower thing. D&D just seems so RIDICULOUSLY geared towards allowing spell casters EVERY opportunity to be the best at everything while making players who play a Fighter feel useless that it's really getting on my last nerve. What can I ask my DM to do to adjust encounters so I'm useful again? Fight larger numbers of smaller opponents as opposed to 1 or 2 larger things? Miracle me up some bad ass magical weapon? I'm so annoyed.​

Every other character class gets piles of skill points to spend to become useful in less combat oriented, roleplaying style situations. Not Fighters. The only useful class skill they have in social type situations is Intimidate, and that's nerfed because it's Charisma based and I can't afford to waste one of my good abilities on Charisma. Everything for Fighters is focused on "bonus" feats. And much as I like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, they give me a +1 to hit and a +1 to damage. Power attack is sort of cool I guess, but it's only useful against foes that are ridiculously simple to hit, or foes that I HAVE to roll a 20 to hit, and even then I get to add only 6 or so to my damage. That all leaves me feeling pretty impotent when the Mage rolls out his pile of 8 d6's that only get cut in half if the enemy succeeds his relatively difficult saving throw, the Druid calls down lightning from the heavens, and the Illusionist(Manticore) is throwing 6 spikes out of his tail that each do 1d8+2 damage.​

I hope you're all seeing my point, and as often as I see "Fighters suck" threads on these types of boards I can only assume that you do. So now I'm at a point where I can't do anything well. I can't enter "roleplaying" situations and do well because my skills are all useless. Jumping, Climbing, Swimming, and my crappy rank in Indimidate don't do me so well when I'm trying to gather information about someone, or infiltrate some gang. And now that my party's spell casters aren't stuck casting level 0 spells I'm essentially useless when it comes to combat. This seriously detracts from my enjoyment of playing D&D. Is there any plan that anyone knows of to try to fix this problem in future releases? (I know v4.0 has to come out eventually).​

And now for my final, somewhat related, gripe. Please someone explain to me how it's fair that magical attacks (Lightning, Scintillating Sphere, Fireball, Magic Missile) bypass all types of Damage Reduction? If we encounter a Natural Lycanthrope I HAVE to have a Silver weapon or they get -10 DR, but all of those magical attacks just bypass it. If we fight a Satyr I HAVE to have a Cold Iron weapon or it gets -5 DR, but all of those magical attacks just bypass it. And don't any of you dare tell me "Spell Resistance". Magical attacks bypass all types of DR except for Spell Resistance, whereas I'd have to carry around a dozen different types of weapons in order to bypass all of the different types of DR. It's just not fair, it's yet another advantage that spell casters have over Fighters.​

I guess I'll stop venting now. If you guys have any suggestions about how I can outfit my character better, how I can suggest my DM tailor encounters differently, feats that are truly useful... Anything to make D&D fun for me again would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Mistwell]

I used to agree with you. But with the new feats in Player's Handbook 2, I really think Fighters have almost caught up. And apparently the Book of Nine Swords takes them the rest of the way.

As for a 6th level fighter...there I think you are wrong. Your 6th level fighter should be much more powerful as far as combat goes than your 6th level spellcaster most of the time. And if they are not...then you might consider a different build. A 6th level fighter with a big two handed weapon and power attack and cleave and decent armor should be mopping the floor with foes far more often than your spellcasters.

Feats are your strength - they define the Fighter class. They are the equivelent to your spells and special abilities - your polymorph and wild shape and Scintillating Sphere and Entangle.

You list you feats as "Dodge, Toughness, Endurance, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Iron Will, Power Attack". I gotta say, that's not very optimal (and I am not a big optimizer). Dodge? Toughness? Endurance? What the heck are you doing with those feats? If dodge was your thing, you could have had mobility and spring attack to go with it instead of toughness and endurance. If hit points (toughness) was your thing (and I don't see why it would be), you should have had improved toughness instead. And endurance? The only purpose I can think of for that feat is that you had levels in Ranger, or you needed it as a prerequisite for something else.

If it's really bugging you, go for the chain tripper (or exotic reach weapon like Heavy Poleaxe or Great Spear, and armor spikes or the short haft feat) that everyone always complains about. The new items in magic item compendium make it so that you will be tripping just about anything, and getting a free attack for it, a bonus to iterative attacks against the now prone creature, and usually another free attack in the form of an attack of opportunity as the target stands up from being prone.

Spellcasters don't automatically become powerful in combat - they have to be built that way. It's your responsibility to do the same with your fighter, if keeping up with power in combat is important to you.

 

[James McMurray]

Fighters don't suck. They can easily out damage the spellcasters. They lack versatility outside of combat, but that's not their niche.

DR is fair because SR exists. You can hit that satyr or lyncathrope and still be gauranteed to get some damage past. When your wizard friend fires something at an enemy with SR he typically has around a 50% chance to overcome it unless he's spent feats or gear on it. If he fails, nothing happens.

If you really can't see past the "fighters blow chunks" veil to what they can really do I'd suggest asking your DM if he'll allow the Book of Nine Swords. It's a great source for new and interesting melee combatants.

 

[Slaved]

It looks like you are a dwarf, which is definately a power move, with some weak feat choices.

Dodge, toughness, and endurance are all pretty weak feats, most likely because they can lead to other powerful feats.

If you went a little higher in the feat chains or if you traded these out for more directly powerful feats that would probably help a great deal.

 

[marune]

That's one of the spot where the balance and the "realism" of some sacred cows come into conflicts.

Before 3E classes weren't balanced, the Wizard (at the same level) was more powerful than the Fighter, because well, "realism" says that spells are more powerful than melee fighting !

They tried in 3E to get balance while keeping some of these sacred cows, the rogue was a success (evasion was a very good idea) and the fighter was not.

 

[FireLance]

What the DM has to do is to find some way to wear out the casters. Once they run out of spells, the fighter will get the chance to shine. Assuming, of course, the spellcasters don't have some easy way to rest and regain their spells.

 

[Bagpuss]

Level: 6 Fighter
AC/HP: 24/64
Weapon: +1 Silver Dwarven Waraxe
Attack Roll: +11/+6
Damage: d10+5
Feats: Dodge, Toughness, Endurance, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Iron Will, Power Attack

Are you a Dwarf fighter I take it? Otherwise why the Dwarven Waraxe? And since your using a Dwarven Waraxe.

As the waraxe is one handed you are obviously using a shield (yet you don't mention it).

Why have you got Toughness, Endurance and Iron Will (pretty pointless feats) You have hit points being a fighter so Toughness is no use (if you want more hit points take Improved Toughness instead). Endurance hardly ever comes into play. Iron Will, you are going to most likely fail Will Saves anyway this won't help enough.

Get useful feats like Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization (heavy) and Agile Shield Fighter. That gives you an extra attack a round, and improves your AC. Buy a +1 heavy spiked shield of bashing, which does 2d6+1+(whatever strength modifier applies).

I say whatever strength as you might want to make it your primary attack since it does more damage than the Dwarven Waraxe.

Then you've got 3 attacks a round, I don't know your Strength, but I assume it is reasonable. 4d6+1 and 1d10 plus any strength or power attack modifiers is pretty good damage, every round, until like a caster who will run out of spells. Get Melee Weapon Mastery for and additional +2 to hit and damage with your primary weapon. Get the Anklet of Teleportation from Magic Item Compendium so you can get your full attack off more often, the 20ft move of a dwarf is a pain.

AC 24 is that 10 + 9 (+1 full plate) +3 (+1 heavy shield), +1 (Ring of Protection) +1 (Amulet of Natural Armour)?

Ditch the Silver Dwarven Waraxe and get a normal one, why have -1 damage against all opponents on the off chance you meet a werewolf or something that has DR/silver. Use a normal magic one and get some of that potion that makes your weapon count as silver, or just power attack when you meet something with DR as they tend to have lower ACs.

 

[Jon_Samuelson]

The reason I have Dodge, Toughness, and Endurance is because I've been planning to take Dwarven Defender as a Prestige Class.

I didn't want that to sound like I was whining, but more as a plea for help. I have really only been playing for about 6 months after having had about a 10 year hiatus from any type of role playing and even then I didn't really play D&D but other games. Because of all of that I'm just not familiar enough with a lot of the complexities of game play to know how to combine useful things together to make a powerful Fighter. I've considered trying to use the Tome of Battle, but was hoping that I could beef up my Fighter without it.

Mistwell, as far as your suggestion of carrying a two-handed weapon goes... Is it more advantageous to do that and sacrifice the +3 to AC I get from my shield? I've considered trading in my Dwarven Waraxe for a Greataxe and going exclusively 2-handed, but was a little paranoid about dropping my AC down to 21.

What sorts of Feat Combinations do you guys reccomend? I was seriously considering going with Melee Weapon Mastery (+2 Attack/+2 Damage) for my next feat. I'll appreciate anything you guys can suggest.

 

[billd91]

Don't forget that plenty of opponents you'll face have a variety of energy resistance which WILL cut down the damage some spells do from the spellcasters. That means they should have a variety of spells with different energy types to throw at their opposition. That parallels nicely with your different types of weapons.

Better yet, invest in the best magic weapon with one material modifier you can afford (adamantine is expensive but hard to beat) and get a bunch of pots of silversheen. Get the disposable stuff if you feel you really can't carry around a couple of extra weapons for those off times you face something that has DR.

As others have pointed out, you can't really complain about power issues if your build is not exactly geared up for power. Toughness and Endurance may be good role-playing or flavor points and may be necessary for a prestige class or two, but you're not going to be on top of the power curve with them.
You're complaining about the difficulties of moving in against big monsters. The answer to that is Mobility because it allows you inside their reach with a big bonus to your AC against their AoO. You've got the Dodge prerequisite for it, but not the one that will help in the very situation you complain about.

I'm also kind of wondering about the druid's wildshaping. If he's 6th level too, he's limited to small and medium sized creatures, large doesn't come on board until level 8. And even then, the animal form is supposed to be one the druid character is familiar with, not just anything out of the MM that has the animal type. I guess, using the errata for the MM, he could turn into a Deinonychus, but even then they aren't shockingly tough compared to a 6th level fighter.

 

[mikebr99]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to echo the "three of your feats are weak choices" comments...

Is there a specific build (PrC etc.) that some or all of these feats are a requirement for?

Mike