Fighting a black dragon...

[Danceofmasks]

Well, sure ...
but green dragons live in forests, not on top of the mattahorn.
but green dragons are supposed to (under tactics) use their gaze to drag PCs into swatting range instead of hurling them off cliffs ... or into quicksand (which is more feasible for a forest denizen).

So tough as the case may be, and green dragons are tough ... but if used to maximum advantage, that power is a TPK machine.

 

[DracoSuave]

True, but a -lair- is rarely out in broad daylight. Green dragons hanging out in the middle of the Andes mountains IS unusual.

However, a Green Dragon hanging out in a cave in the Bratveria Forests, a Coastal Rainforest in a heavily mountainous region isn't unusual. So you'd have the cave mouth, and some uneven terrain about so that the dragon can shift party members into pits and gulleys designed by -an intellegence greater than man- to trap his quarry.

Seriously, if I had the ability to randomly move people about -with my mind- and I didn't set up traps to catch said meat, I'd be a pretty dumb dragon.

That's the often neglected part about Dragon encounters, they have lairs designed to their strengths because a) they aren't stupid, and b) that enhances the pc's fight against them as featured awesome monsters. You -should- be able to craft a single dragon as a viable and challenging encounter, and if you're not using terrain to do so, you're really missing out on what the dragon can do.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I'm happy to TPK parties repeatedly, 'cos I play hardcore D&D, and I think "monsters generally don't attack unconscious PCs" is an idiotic rule/fluff.
The level 25 game I'm playing in, we've all been splattered repeatedly due to concentrated fire & CdGs, as well as other nasties ...

But the way I play in that game isn't the way I play in LFR and most other games, 'cos for a hardcore game to work, everyone involved has like that sort of stuff.

 

[DracoSuave]

It's not a matter of TPK tho. The party shouldn't cakewalk their way through encounters anyways, and a dragon is -special.- Terrain is a part of 4e encounters by default, and a dragon should use it, and have their lair set up so they -can- use it. The players also can use it as well, but it's up to them to figure out how to use it or avoid it.

If you have a dragon encounter and you're not playing the terrain to the hilt, you're doing the players a disservice. It's not a matter of TPK, it's a matter of challenging them so that the -possibility- of a TPK, real or not, looms over their imagination.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Ah, but it is a matter of TPK ...
'cos the absolute worst thing any DM can do is put on the brakes when PCs are losing.
That's total epic fail.

 

[James McMurray]

Challenging terrain + Dragon != gotta TPK
Challenging Terrain + Dragon = hard fight that will be remembered

A GM who doesn't have a dragon encounter where the dragon's surroundings play to its strengths needs to work on his encounter design and read a few more books with dragon lairs in them. Dragon fights, especially in their lairs, should be weighted towards the dragon. Anything less is "epic fail" whether it results in a TPK or not.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I'm not arguing against challenging terrain.
I'm arguing that green dragons are TPK machines, rather than challenging encounter machines.

Edit for clarity:
If said green dragon starts an encounter by throwing a PC into a pit or somesuch, and that power can be used every single round as a minor action ...
The epic fail is when the DM fails to TPK the party by doing it every single round.
'cos it'd be obvious that it can, and not doing so cheats the players out of an honest victory.

 

[DracoSuave]

OR the party gets smart and doesn't stand two squares away from a pit.

I mean, that's the obvious fix from the party standpoint.

Also, the green dragon -might- toss them in a pit as a minor action.

Those saving throws DO come into effect.

And lastly: Dwarf. Problem solved.

 

[Danceofmasks]

But that's where the dragon is ..

 

[James McMurray]

Do you do the same thing day in and day out, or do you mix it up because you're bored? Now tack 1,000 years onto your life and answer the boredom part again.

Low end green dragons slide the target 2 squares, which is not always going to be enough to throw someone over a ledge. Even when they do, there's a 55% or better chance that the target falls prone instead. Higher level dragons can go up to 4 squares, but are then contending with character who have better defenses against falling.

It's a good tactic. It's not always the best one, nor is it always available. Sometimes you'd rather put another character inside your breath weapon's area, especially since it could mean more damage (keeping in mind the DMG fall guidelines). Pulling them closer to your frightening presence could also be fun.