D&D General Fighting Law and Order

[Flamestrike]

you CLEARLY REQUIRE TEACHING... you'd last about 5 seconds in any game I am associated with. Heck, you'd never get in at all.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

That's my point.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The group cant stop bad behaviour unless the DM does.

The group could be entirely against a fellow PC murdering them in their sleep, but unless the DM also cares it's totally moot.

Get it yet? It's the DMs responsibility. The buck stops with him (or her).


Ergh. Nice way to avoid the question. Not.

OK. A vile monstrous PC has died, and the PCs are later tasked to recover his soul from the afterlife. He had LG on his character sheet when he was killed.

What plane do they look to for his spirit; the Nine hells, or the Seven Heavens?

This is really not true. The group, as a whole, is the game. If one player starts acting in a way that upsets all the other players, they most certainly can expel him and then say to the GM "OK, we're going back to the point where Mr Obnoxious got up to his hijinks, only now he's an NPC." I'd like to see the GM really object to that in an effective way. I mean, the players should explain to the GM what they're intent is and include his opinion as A FELLOW GROUP MEMBER, but they are in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM beholden to the GM like some lord of the game. 'The buck stops here', ROFLMAO!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

But you said before it was down to the DM to 'refuse to acknowledge the actions of the bad player'.

Which is it?

Both can be true, and if the GM fails to do her job, then the players are going to have to do it for her. Right?

 

[Flamestrike]

This is really not true. The group, as a whole, is the game. If one player starts acting in a way that upsets all the other players, they most certainly can expel him and then say to the GM "OK, we're going back to the point where Mr Obnoxious got up to his hijinks, only now he's an NPC.

And when the DM refuses to expel him or to reset the campaign, just like the same DM refused to stop him before the bad behaviour occurred in the first place requiring the reset?

Again, who has the responsibility in the game to enforce, police and stop bad behavior? When this table falls apart, was it the fault of the bad player, or the fault of the bad DM?

You keep omitting this vital point. The DM is the one with the final responsibility. In the above example, the DM could have stopped the problem before it became a problem in the first place but choose not to.

It's the DMs job to enforce standards, teach the game, and reign in bad behavior. Its part of managing and teaching the game.

If you don't want that responsibility, don't DM.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

And when the DM refuses to expel him or to reset the campaign, just like the same DM refused to stop him before the bad behaviour occurred in the first place requiring the reset?

Again, who has the responsibility in the game to enforce, police and stop bad behavior? When this table falls apart, was it the fault of the bad player, or the fault of the bad DM?

You keep omitting this vital point. The DM is the one with the final responsibility. In the above example, the DM could have stopped the problem before it became a problem in the first place but choose not to.

It's the DMs job to enforce standards, teach the game, and reign in bad behavior. Its part of managing and teaching the game.

If you don't want that responsibility, don't DM.

No, you are wrong. A table full of people playing an RPG are just 3, 4, 5, however many people sitting at a table trying to have fun. There's nothing mysterious and 'powerful' about being a game master. It is just like there's nothing special about being the dealer at poker night. Yeah, you deal, you do whatever the rules of the game say a dealer does. That doesn't mean you are automatically police man if Joe over there decides to misbehave. The whole table is the table, if a person at that table is causing problems, they can and should fix it together. I mean, its fine if they all want to say "GM, Fix it" and I don't dispute that this is often done, but its not some sort of sacred duty or extraordinary power of the GM. Where would they derive that power from? The game is nothing, its just an activity, the people are real, their relationships and interactions are real.

 

[bloodtide]

No, you are wrong. A table full of people playing an RPG are just 3, 4, 5, however many people sitting at a table trying to have fun. There's nothing mysterious and 'powerful' about being a game master. It is just like there's nothing special about being the dealer at poker night. Yeah, you deal, you do whatever the rules of the game say a dealer does. That doesn't mean you are automatically police man if Joe over there decides to misbehave. The whole table is the table, if a person at that table is causing problems, they can and should fix it together. I mean, its fine if they all want to say "GM, Fix it" and I don't dispute that this is often done, but its not some sort of sacred duty or extraordinary power of the GM. Where would they derive that power from? The game is nothing, its just an activity, the people are real, their relationships and interactions are real.

This is not true.

I realize that from past posts you only play the games with saints and angels, and everyone is both a player and GM, as you mix the two.

But a lot of other gaming groups are more diverse. A lot of groups have bad people in them. A lot of groups are strangers to each other, only getting together to play the game. And a lot of groups are full of people that disagree about everything, or outright hate each other....but just get together to game. Also a lot of gamers are just players that but close to zero effort into the game, other then they show up to "play". Often such players barley know the game rules, or quite often don't know the game rules. And quite often the DM is the only one putting any effort into the game at all and has to "run" everything. The DM is, and has to be, the local expert on everything, including the game rules.

And this is on top of the fact that most people (not just gamers) are very passive. Get a group of people together, and if one of them acts up at all.....they will just sit there and do nothing.

So in such diverse groups....often only one person will take a stand: The DM.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This is not true.

I realize that from past posts you only play the games with saints and angels, and everyone is both a player and GM, as you mix the two.

But a lot of other gaming groups are more diverse. A lot of groups have bad people in them. A lot of groups are strangers to each other, only getting together to play the game. And a lot of groups are full of people that disagree about everything, or outright hate each other....but just get together to game. Also a lot of gamers are just players that but close to zero effort into the game, other then they show up to "play". Often such players barley know the game rules, or quite often don't know the game rules. And quite often the DM is the only one putting any effort into the game at all and has to "run" everything. The DM is, and has to be, the local expert on everything, including the game rules.

And this is on top of the fact that most people (not just gamers) are very passive. Get a group of people together, and if one of them acts up at all.....they will just sit there and do nothing.

So in such diverse groups....often only one person will take a stand: The DM.

I'm doubting you ever tried. I've run plenty of RPG sessions for diverse ad-hoc groups of people. Ask my sister about that too, she is a public librarian with a LOT of experience, and a GM who has run a ton of games at the library, especially games for school kids in the summer and such. @Gilladian can definitely tell you what works. Another friend of mine ran RPGs in Juvie. He SPECIFICALLY got the players to handle all the issues, he's completely wheelchair bound most of the time, so you can believe he's a master of knowing how to negotiate with difficult people. He just told them what was needed, and handed all that over to the kids, they were fully self-policing. I admit, he said the rest of the staff was pretty surprised, and that's a key observation, you are underestimating your fellow humans.

One thing I sort of agree with you on, is that unenthusiastic people are generally poor players, and reaching someone can require significant effort. How to do that is going to vary from person to person, bullying won't ever work! For instance just demonstrating the rewards of getting engaged by having a really great session with one or another of the other players can bring in some people, they will then try to achieve that demonstrated fun. Others often lack self confidence, or doubt their possession of sufficient ability in some area. I am not going to say you will get success with everyone, but one thing is true, they came to your table for SOME reason. Something drew them to want to participate.

 

[bloodtide]

I'm doubting you ever tried. I've run plenty of RPG sessions for diverse ad-hoc groups of people.

Ok, so you and two other people have run RPGs with no player problems ever.

Now, accept that everyone else in the world might not be exactly like you, your two other GMs and your social circle of gamers.

If nothing else you can look at one of the "game nightmare" Reddits.

 

[Vaalingrade]

From the front page of the always true and never exaggerated of wholly fake RPG Horror Stories subreddit:

GM shuts down entire campaign and discord server in minutes with no warning or explanation due to lack of communication. CoC. Long Post with TL;DR​

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ok, so you and two other people have run RPGs with no player problems ever.

Now, accept that everyone else in the world might not be exactly like you, your two other GMs and your social circle of gamers.

If nothing else you can look at one of the "game nightmare" Reddits.

Hey, pardon me if I and my friends, who collectively have 100's of years of GMing experience BTW are not having all that many problems! You try to belittle us by calling it "no problems ever" of course, but this is just a cheap rhetorical trick. I mean, I can be cheap and rhetorical too, if I wish, heck I have degrees to prove it! lol. Anyway, having played with a LOT of different, and often younger, players, what stands out for me is how treating them with respect and giving them a chance to show what they can do REALLY WORKS.

As I ACTUALLY said in my last post, I haven't reached every player who ever played, some people really are hard to crack. However I put that up to MY inability, as I'm quite sure someone can do it. You said you manage 50% of the time, that's just pretty low! I can't honestly state a %, but its been quite a few years since I actually had a seriously difficult person who couldn't respond.