File-Sharing: Has it affected the RPG industry?

Calico_Jack73 said:
Heck, I for one would probably buy the same book in both formats just so that I'd have an easy way to cut-and-paste parts of the PDF into my own reference sheets prior to running a game.

Looking back over the posts that appeared while I was composing mine (yes I'm slow!), I realize I forgot to mention part of Behemoth3's publishing strategy: when you buy the print version of any of our first three books, you'll get its PDF version for free. If you got your book in a store, it'll have a sticker with a registration code (just like a software manual) that you can enter at our website to unlock the PDF download and the Vorpal tools for the book. If you buy your book from our website, we'll send you the PDF right away so you can use it while you're waiting for us to sign your book and ship it to you!

Print is by far the best format for many uses and many users. But there are cool things you can only do with electronic text, like cutting and pasting to make your own character sheets or putting together a compilation of the material you use from 15 different books with hyperlinks that seamlessly index them with the core SRD. It's your right to do all the cool things you can think of using the Open Gaming License, and Behemoth3 feels strongly that you shouldn't have to do your own scanning or risk a file-sharing lawsuit in order to exercise your rights as a gamer.

The print and PDF versions of Masters and Minions will be available following GenCon.

*******************************************
Now available: the ashmalkin, an example of SwoRD Project OGC from the Masters and Minions series
 
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I'd like to know how much more or less money is lost through pirated third party additions than through downloading the SRD. In my case, I bought all the 3.0 SRD books, a long time before I knew there was an "SRD" out there for free. When 3.5 came out, I simply couldn't justify the $90 expenditure on three new core books to myself when the content is at wizards.com for free, sans pantheon (which is still in my 3.0 edition books).
 

Janx said:
In theory, whats to stop a publisher from flooding a pirate site/p2p system with crappy scans of their product...

That's just a crazy enough, it just might work.

Think about it. WotC makes the PH. They then make a crappy PDF out of it (missing pages, poor legibility). They then hit every pirate site they can and upload it anonymously. Now, pirates will have to work hard to tell the difference between the good one, and the bad one. And as on person mentioned, the bad ones seem to proliferate such that people are too lazy to find a good version.

Janx

That's what movie studios are doing. They're u/ling "blank" copies of movies to disuade d/ling.

I have some p2p files. The reasons I have them are:

Certain books are OOP or just impossible to get without having to mortgage the house. Example: Older RPGA modules (the R series). They are going on ebay for $200+. For a module?? The collectors can collect. I have it for running.

I need a map or some pictures from a book. Example the KoK modules. They have pictures to display during the adventure. I have the module. To make copies? about 1 -2 dollars. Scanned pages printed to printer?? Cost of toner (pennies)
 

Take a look at the recent press release from Interplay regarding "Baldur's Gate 3" and further "Icewind Dale" Titles from April 28, 2004

http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/static/EplFElpEuVQNpuvSeb.php

Ever since that release, all mentions of PC D&D (such as Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale) titles have disappeared form the Interplay website...

For those who don't like to read between the lines of legal text it says something like "We'd rather produce XBOX and PS2 titles (since they are harder to copy) than PC games"

Maybe after reading this all you file sharers out there should realize you're killing whole industries. Killing industries means you not only won't have new songs/movies/games/software but also you potentially won't have a job in times to come!

edited for clarity:

Fortunately for the RPG industry scanned JPEG-PDF's are just too unwieldy to use right now but as OCR will likely improve in the future the death blow due to filesharing is IMHO a serious threat to the pen & paper RPG industry.

After all pen & paper RPG is a niche industry with a comparatively low revenue, every $30 missed due to file sharing is like a nail in the coffin...
 
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I dont think piracy really hurts the RPG industry. As many other people I think RPG publishers need the support they can get and if it is a game or supplement that I like I will buy it so I can contribute to the publisher being able to produce more of that game in the future. I suspect that a lot of role players work like that.

I think the music industry as we know it today will go down because of P2P- sharing because of how easy mp3:s are to use, how they only market certain kinds of music and because of how bloated the companies have become. When you pay for a music CD you pay like 10 % of the price to the artist, 2 % for the physical CD and the rest to the record companies. In essence by buying that CD you are feeding the middle hand that thanks you by producing and marketing Britney Spears albums.

The RPG industry doesnt have quite this problem. When you buy a RPG book you know that a) you got what you payed for (I consider 30 $ a reasonable price for a book of any cathegory) and b) you dont pay 90 % of the cost to the gaming store (or I hope not but I would be really surprised if that was the case; you dont see game store owners driving limos after all ;) ) that is the middle hand in this case.

For me it's a case of whatever I feel cheated by the salesman or not. It doesnt feel wrong to DL music because I feel that the record companies are screwing me but it would feel very wrong to DL (and not buy afterwards) a product that is fairly priced by someone struggling to live on that product.

Sometimes though I have DL:d products that I'm curious to see what they look like but would never buy. I read them through and then I delete them. But it's really like someone above said that it's like reading the product in a game store but in my apartment.
 

Ssyleia said:
Maybe after reading this all you file sharers out there should realize you're killing whole industries. Killing industries means you not only won't have new songs/movies/games/software but also you potentially won't have a job in times to come!
As a small-time publisher myself, I have to say, that yes, copyright infringement hurts. HOWEVER, the file-sharing phenomenon is, IMO, a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself. I've quoted it before, but here it is again... http://yarchive.net/macaulay/copyright.html

Thomas Babington Macauley said:
...if {copyright is extended to a long duration}, and should produce one-tenth part of the evil which it is calculated to produce, and which I fully expect it to produce, there will soon be a remedy, though of a very objectionable kind. Just as the absurd acts which prohibited the sale of game were virtually repealed by the poacher, just as many absurd revenue acts have been virtually repealed by the smuggler, so will this law be virtually repealed by piratical booksellers. At present {Sigil's Note: With Copyright terms of 28 years at the time of this speech} the holder of copyright has the public feeling on his side. Those who invade copyright are regarded as knaves who take the bread out of the mouths of deserving men. Everybody is well pleased to see them restrained by the law, and compelled to refund their ill-gotten gains. ... Pass this law {extending copyright to very long terms, more than a human lifetime}: and that feeling is at an end. Men very different from the present race of piratical booksellers will soon infringe this intolerable monopoly. Great masses of capital will be constantly employed in the violation of the law. Every art will be employed to evade legal pursuit; and the whole nation will be in the plot. On which side indeed should the public sympathy be when the question is whether some book ... shall be confined to the libraries of the rich for the advantage of the great-grandson of a bookseller who, a hundred years before, drove a hard bargain for the copyright with the author when in great distress?

Remember too that, when once it ceases to be considered as wrong and discreditable to invade literary property, no person can say where the invasion will stop. The public seldom makes nice distinctions. The wholesome copyright which now exists will share in the disgrace and danger of the new copyright which you are about to create. And you will find that, in attempting to impose unreasonable restraints on the reprinting of the works of the dead, you have, to a great extent, annulled those restraints which now prevent men from pillaging and defrauding the living.
Without waxing too political here, I fear that - though infringers themselves probably don't understand why they feel the way that they do - this hideously long copyright terms are the problem. Hideously long copyright terms are the result of the "content publishing" industry. In other words, the destruction of industry you speak of is the direct result of the actions taken by the industry itself - by extending copyright terms to unreasonable durations, they have, in effect, killed the golden goose that is the public's goodwill and readiness to tolerate copyright in exchange for the promise of the flow of ideas and entertainment to the masses.

This probably goes a little into the political spectrum, but it's a good philosophical look at why "pirates" want to "sock it to big companies." They know that joe schmoe little guy is just trying to scrape along and isn't trying to bleed the intellectual commons dry with excessive copyright terms and draconian punishments... but they do recognize that this is EXACTLY what media conglomerates are trying to do. They probably can't articulate their distaste as well as Macauley, but I think he provided a perfect diagnosis of the "mentality of file sharing" - and he did so 150 years ago.

In other words, it's not the technology (P2P) that is killing media companies. It is the greed of media companies, trying to push the public "too hard" with copyright terms, that is killing media companies because people don't respect their ridiculous laws. The technology - the P2P stuff - is just an "enabler" - a tool that allows that frustration to be vented.

Note: I'm not saying I encourage copyright infringement - or that it should be legal. I'm also not saying I encourage long copyright terms - or that THEY should be legal (I happen to think 28 years is too LONG, myself, but that's neither here nor there). The point I'm trying to make here is that to blame the file sharers exclusively for the collapse of an industry is like trying to point the blame at the kid who finally throws a punch and bloodies the nose of one of the bullies who's been bloodying him for decades. Yes, he shouldn't punch them, but can you blame him? And are we going to call the bullies who have been beating on him for decades blameless now?

Two wrongs don't make a right... but one wrong (infringing) does not make a wrong (draconian copyright) a right either.

I'm not thrilled about file sharing, but I really doubt I have lost any "sales" to it. Those who download my books off P2P I think probably fall into one of three categories:

a.) The "jerk" who infringes just to "thumb his nose" and truly, honestly doesn't care that it's food off my table. He wasn't going to pay me anyway, so I can't count him as a lost sale.

b.) The "poor man" who wouldn't buy my product because he hasn't the money. He wasn't going to pay me anyway, so I can't count him as a lost sale.

c.) The "cheapskate" who wouldn't pay for my product - not because he hasn't the money, but because he's cheap. He wasn't going to pay me anyway, so I can't count him as a lost sale.

There might be the guy (d) who is going to buy my product, but then sees it on KaZaA and changes his mind since free is better than cheap. He's just another version of (c.) above.

*Shrugs* If my stuff gets pirated, I really don't blame the pirates... I blame the media conglomerates who, by extending copyright terms unreasonably, have taken away the "shame" of piracy - instead of nice short copyright terms where people feel bad if they use my stuff, knowing that I worked hard on it and deserve some recompense, instead the media congolomerates have gone and caused the public to feel ill will towards creative artists because the public *knows* copyright is ripping the public off.

Again, it's not because of the public hating me in particular, but as mentioned above, because the public has a hard time drawing the line... does it hurt if the guy is 50 years dead? 40 years dead? 30? 20? 10? Still alive? Published 50 years ago? 40? 30? 20? 10? Yesterday? Where's the line. When copyright crosses the magic threshold where at the "tail end" of 70 years after the author's death, there's no perceived hurt to the author, it's a very short slippery slope to "5 seconds after publication" I'm afraid.

At the end of the day, I think it's totally unreasonable for me to expect that I will be unable to use works published by my GREAT GRANDFATHER'S contemporaries without paying royalties and that it's unreasonable for me to expect that someone will have to pay my GREAT GRANDCHILDREN royalties to use stuff I write. I shouldn't be able to turn around and use something as soon as I hear it, but I think it's reasonable that I should be able to make use of something that I see published new DURING MY OWN LIFETIME (i.e., if it was published during my early lifetime, say, my childhood, I should reasonably expect to be able to use it at some point in my life)! Of course, with current copyright laws, that's not the case, and I think that robbing people of the ability to use the language, idioms, and expressions germaine to THEIR OWN DAY, forbidding them to re-use THEIR OWN CULTURE, thereby robbing them of their Free Speech by taking from them their natural voice, is a crime many orders of magnitudes worse than someone taking $5 off my table for a PDF.

Bottom line: On an individual level, "pirates" are responsible for the demise of industries. On an institutional level, the industries themselves are MUCH MORE responsible for their own demise - by killing the golden goose.

Sorry, but I just get really irritated when people place all the blame on one group and absolve the other of responsibility. It's not always so black and white - the reason piracy exists is more that a simple "pirates are jerks." :( In this case, blame is like manure... there's always plenty to spread around, and everyone winds up stinky to some degree or other.

--The Sigil
 
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My .02

Consider me one of those poor folks out there who lives in a location that is painfully difficult to get a job. Hence, I lack the money to purchase the books I really want to get. So, I can admit that I do have a few books from p2p that I would rather have a hardback copy of. Also, I'm not going to print these books out because, in the long run, it would cost just as much to print (depending on the book) than it would be to just buy. Plus, I would rather have a really cool collection of books on my book shelf than some vapor copies on my hard drive, but until I get the $$$ to get them, I'm going to have them this way.

By viewing some books in this manor, I can honestly say that there are books I will buy that I never heard of, and others that I won't buy at all. I feel guilty doing it this way, but because of my circumstances it's my only way, for now, to have a copy of the book.

But consider me one of those gamers who would rather show off a cool collection of real books than to say that I have some books, but they are the computer, and I for one, don't really intend to lose my eyesight by reading much of them on the computer screen. I lack the money to get my eyes checked also.

If this makes me a bad person, then I guess I am a bad person. But, for many of you publishers, consider me a belated customer in purchasing many of your books.
 

Ssyleia said:
Take a look at the recent press release from Interplay regarding "Baldur's Gate 3" and further "Icewind Dale" Titles from April 28, 2004

http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/static/EplFElpEuVQNpuvSeb.php

Ever since that release, all mentions of PC D&D (such as Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale) titles have disappeared form the Interplay website...

For those who don't like to read between the lines of legal text it says something like "We'd rather produce XBOX and PS2 titles (since they are harder to copy) than PC games"

Maybe after reading this all you file sharers out there should realize you're killing whole industries.
Actually this is not entirely accurate. Yes there is a rampant problem in software copying, but it's been a big problem for years. It has increased due to the internet in general and you will still find sites hosting copies of stuff. It used to be smaller scale (ie someone buying a game and copying it for their 6 friends), but now can be burning an ISO and putting the ISO in their PSP folder.

You ALSO have the problem that, increasingly, there is less interest in PC titles and more interest in console titles. For years PCs were the definitive take on beauty in gaming, but these days there are plenty of games that look just fine on PS2 or XBOX (or even the less popular Cube). These same games are ALWAYS better looking on the PC (witness KOTOR and GTA:VC for good recent examples as well as Halo), but not so much that most folks will buy a very expensive computer vs a $200 or less console.

The mounting interest in and sheer power of consoles has, IMO, done mroe to the PC gaming industry than piracy in the last 2 years, but piracy is also pretty bad for them. Somehow tho, companies still put out games with none or very minor piracy protection. There's always someone who will crack teh protection pretty quickly, but many still ship where you can just do a straight up disc copy and have something that will run.

edit:More importantly for why you se nothing about them on their website anymore...they gave up the rights to the D&D license which means they have no more right to have information about it on their site.

Hagen
 
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Planesdragon said:
RPG piracy is especially infuriating because there's a perfectly legal way to trade the crunchy bits of every non-WotC book out there. *sigh*

Actually, no. There's no perfectly legal way to trade the crunchy bits of Exalted, or GURPS, or other non-OGC games.

Janx said:
Out of all the pirates of product A:
Z% eventually buy the real product (honest samplers)
Y% only wanted a small piece of the product (wouldn't have paid for it)
X% refuses to pay for product (jerks)

You are forgetting a category that was recently added thanks to the considerable brain-storming efforts of antipirates.

T% have bought the real product, but can't use it (unreadable thanks to antipiracy measures).

It's something that we're seeing now in the music industry, but that was seen before in the videogame industry. Back in the time of floppies, games usually had boring antipiracy protections that required you to flip through the game's manual before (or while) playing. I remembered hunting for cracked versions of games I owned because I wanted to skip that part. Now, the current trend is to have the game requires the presence of the CD in the drive. And you can find a lot of no-CD patchs. I use them, too -- my DVD drive is fast, but its access time is crappy, and having to wait 3-4 second for the disk to spin fast enough before it can be read is an unwelcome addition to long loading times.

Fortunately, the RPG industry seems unaffected by this. It can be either because they're clever enough to know that antipiracy protections only harm legit buyers and merely amuse pirates; or it can be because they haven't devised yet ways to prevent the scanning of books (although, I've heard people saying that the brown lines in the D&D core books were supposed to hamper OCR) or the sharing of PDFs. Let's hope they won't.
 

The Sigil said:
...snip everything...


--The Sigil


Wow. So that's why I hate Mickey Mouse.



That was a perfect summary of my feelings concerning the subject.
.
.
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These guys are pirates:

SUNCHIPS (R) HARVEST CHEDDAR (R)

Open a bag and see why SUNCHIPS (R) are LUNCH CHIPS (TM)

--Frito Lay (R)
 

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