Final combat went wrong... Do over?

[Jaxom]

I recently had an adventure ending go completely wrong.

Long story short; the players were protecting an artifact and a castle at the same time. They learned that an opposing army amassing only miles away and prepared defenses for the attack. The leader of this army was determined to take rulership of the land and take ownership of the castle and the artifact.
This person also tricked the party and was allowed to accompany them to the castle to aid in the artifacts protection. The problem I ran into was that this villain staged the whole final battle with a cleric pretending to be the villain while the real villain laid low and waited for a chance to strike.
The battle progressed well and they totally believed the cleric to be their real nemesis, but when the real villain showed herself as the characters resources were low, it didn't have the effect I thought it would have. Not even the uh-oh we're screwed.

I'm curious if I should have went about this in a different way.
I'm considering running the encounter over. Have any of you ever had this happen or have done anything similar?

 

[KnowTheToe]

What was the players reactions? What was the final result?

Either way, I don't think you should run a redo. Find a way to pick up the pieces. Let us know the results to the above questions and we can help you do that.


M@

 

[the Jester]

In my opinion, running something over totally and completely ruins any suspension of disbelief that your campaign might have. Also, it cheeses the characters' victories because they know that, if they lose, they get a chance to do it all again.

Consider too that if you run it over, they'll know who the villain is this time.

Did you get a TPK? What happened? It almost sounds like you're trying to write a story with a specific ending rather than run a game where the actions of the pcs largely determine the outcome. I suggest letting the survivors (if any) deal with the way things turned out, or if nobody survived, letting new 1st-level pcs deal with the consequences of the bad guys winning.

 

[King_Stannis]

no mulligans. it ruins the suspension of disbelief. live and learn and move on.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Well, did they save their game before the big battle... oh wait, this is PnP not computer gaming... Sorry, they villian outsmarted them and they should have to deal with it. Villians can't lose every round (else how do they get to high levels?).
I can only assume that the castle and artifact both fell into the hands of the villian, who is now Supremely Powerful and the party is either dead or mostly dead.

Your options are: Have the surviving characters hire some followers (the new characters of the other players) and go after the villian - or the One Artifact that has power over the one the villian took.
or
Use this disaster as the backstory for your new campaign. For example: "The world has been ruled by an evil villian for centuries, the lands are blighted and undead whip the enslaved populace in their endless labors..." and have the new party be a band of escaped slaves whose quest is to overthrow the Evil Empire.

 

[-Warlord-]

Even heroes don't always win in the end.

The party lost and you want to do the encounter over?
Their actions have spoken...and they lost. I wouldn't give them a chance to do it over, cause that would break their suspension of disbelieve. It would have the feel of a computergame....get defeated....reload and try again...win...go to new level.

Just think through what for effects the deafeat has on your campaignworld, and go with it.
So now you have a villain, in a castle, with an artifact?

What can he do with the artifact? And what is his intend now he has it?
Will he raise an army and go conquer nearby kingdoms? Does it warp the land around the castle to the villains taste? The villain is going to leave a stain on your campaignworld.

Then, plunge the players back into the world, and let them deal with the effects.
You can start a new party in a nearby kingdom, where the players have to mount a defense against the uncoming army. Or maybe they are resistance fighters, fighting the occupation of the villain.
Or have the whole party raised after their defeat. They are probably the ones who know the villain's castle best, and know his powers and know how he fights. A group of clerics would gladly raise them to in order to stop the villain.

Going with the consequenses of both good wins AND bad defeats makes your campaignworld so much more alive.

 

[Grazzt]

In my opinion, running something over totally and completely ruins any suspension of disbelief that your campaign might have. Also, it cheeses the characters' victories because they know that, if they lose, they get a chance to do it all again.

Yeppers- totally agree here. Regardless of the outcome I would never run something again. I never have. Even when my players missed a vital piece of info or even if their blunder (which I'm not saying this instance was a player blunder) resulted in the entire party being wiped out. No do overs.

Doing something over, no matter how badly it turned out makes D&D seem more like a video game than a pen and paper RPG (and 3e doesn't need any more help feeling like a video game).

And just as a side note, what if you run it again and they lose again? Do you run it a third time? Or do you fudge the rolls so the PCs cannot lose? Either one is bad, IMHO. PCs lose sometimes. It happens, especially in D&D. Player characters (regardless of what Diablo teaches us) are not supposed to win every battle or encounter.

It almost sounds like you're trying to write a story with a specific ending rather than run a game where the actions of the pcs largely determine the outcome. I suggest letting the survivors (if any) deal with the way things turned out, or if nobody survived, letting new 1st-level pcs deal with the consequences of the bad guys winning.

It does sound almost like a "scripted" (for lack of a better word) ending, since we don't (yet) know what happened or what was supposed to happen. But, I'm with you on this as well. If all party members died, let 1st-level PCs pick up the pieces and one day face the villain. If some party members survived, let them return to town, amass some new party members or henchmen and return to attempt killing the villain again.

 

[Kai Lord]

I'm curious if I should have went about this in a different way.
I'm considering running the encounter over. Have any of you ever had this happen or have done anything similar?

Maybe you shouldn't have had the cleric say "I see this battle will not be decided by our knowledge of the gods, but our skill with a bastard sword," right before they found out that the REAL villain was one they had trusted as an ally....

 

[Grazzt]

Re: Re: Final combat went wrong... Do over?

Maybe you shouldn't have had the cleric say "I see this battle will not be decided by our knowledge of the gods, but our skill with a bastard sword," right before they found out that the REAL villain was one they had trusted as an ally....

What's wrong with this? Many fantasy tales (and other genres) have the true villain profess to be an ally only to turn on his friends at the end. Heck, even some historical tales have something like this happen.

Hell, look at Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, Vader turns on the Emperor at the end. Granted, it was to save his son, but....he still turned on his friend and ally, the Emperor. Not exactly the same as the above situation, but similar.

 

[FullTinCan]

What's done is done. Pick up the broken pieces and see what comes of it. If you had a TPK, then start a new campaign, 5 or 10 years in the future. Let the new characters try to correct the situation.

Build from the story. Make the players want to get the bad guy. Quite honestly it sounds like you have all the makings for a new, and rather excellent, campaign.

Show the effects of the previous characters actions or inactions. Remember the village they saved, show the prosperity and the good side. Remember the hook they didn't go for, show them the downside of their inaction. But also, let the players see that the world has moved on.

Perhaps something new and sinister is growing in that Wizard's Tower that they decimated. It is important, and I believe everyone would agree with me, that a campaign is not about winning, its about being engrossed in a fantasy world that seems "real".

Best luck.