Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
The mighty challenge gives you a wisdom bonus on it... that is where the Str/Wisdom palading gets his some of his buff. Plus paladins have more than one way to mark.
D&D 3E/3.5 Finally got a 4E cleric to feel like 3.5
The mighty challenge gives you a wisdom bonus on it... that is where the Str/Wisdom palading gets his some of his buff. Plus paladins have more than one way to mark.
LFR: so he is. So all the gods I listed were relevant -- though mechanically, if you're using Holy Strike as your primary at-will, Avandra was a clear winner (mechanically). Plus, she's cool and rerolls are awesome. Though I errred in relying on search (as avandra doesn't have the fate domain), so you could just get crits on 19-20 and hand out +2 to saving throws whenever you hit with Holy Strike. Darn.
no, its not a huge deterrent, but would 7 damage be a huge deterrent?
the -2 is pretty sweet. when combined with a leader, hower, its not an issue: youre slightly worse than a pure defender at discouraging attacks on party members, but youre far better at healing party members when they do get attacked.
you dont lose healers lore. as for 2/encounter, you can pick up another encounter heal as a multiclass feat. thats a lot cheaper than the armor feats.
how are you more restricted in power choices? you have twice as many choices.
I had overlooked the domains in my feat choices. also: the hybrid doesnt get channel divinity, sadly, so no rerolls.
the strength domain adds +2 damage. is that better than critting on 19-20?
also: i like the power of love bonus for recovery strike: you can have it deal no damage to grant 5 temp hp to 2 allies. question: would the next ally who hit also heal? that is, do you still get the rider if you dont deal damage?
renau1g
First Post
Not sure if you're far better than a paladin because you have access to Lay on Hands, which I think you lose right? 7 damage is more of a deterrent yes. A level 1 kobold facing the choice between losing about 1/3 of its hp (skirmisher version) or 16% of their hp might have have a tougher choice.
Personally I find the paladin's mark the easiest to ignore as a DM. The fighter can really hit hard (yes I know it requires an attack roll), SM just negates the damage (shielding) and the warden also can hit hard + gain CA (excluding the ol' shift + charge).
You are more restricted because you must take 1 of each before you can switch back to the other class. So say there's 1 level 1 daily and a level 5 daily of the paladin you really like, you can't take them. Also, there's no encounter heals as an MC feat as far as I know. They are 1/day.
There are several ways you could do this that are better than going cleric|paladin hybrid. Quite frankly, going hybrid is almost always suboptimal.
1) Cleric with Battle Cleric Armaments feat (gives you proficiency with heavier armor and a military weapon) plus multiclass paladin.
2) Paladin with as much cleric multiclass as you can get
3) Runepriest plus armor feats or Runepreist| Barbarian is you want a good leader, striker mix.
1) Cleric with Battle Cleric Armaments feat (gives you proficiency with heavier armor and a military weapon) plus multiclass paladin.
2) Paladin with as much cleric multiclass as you can get
3) Runepriest plus armor feats or Runepreist| Barbarian is you want a good leader, striker mix.
Fifth Element
Legend
And since there aren't 4E spells that give 18 Strength, in order to get the same effect you...give the character an 18 Strength.
Good catch on the encounter vs day heals. i still see hybrid as being less restricted than multiclassing in that it opens up your feat choices.
i think its a bit early to say hybrids are generally suboptimal- and it really matters what tier youre optimizing for. It would be interesting to compare a party of 4 hybrids with a total of 1 of each role to a party with one of each single role.
I should say I weigh the heroic tier far heavier when considering characters- youre guaranteed to spend a lot of time there. the main appeal of the hybrid is the feat savings.
battle cleric armaments is really meh. youre still down 3 AC and 1 reflex from paladin armor prof. generally options 1 and 2 involve a heavy feat tax.
Hey, your idea sounded kind of interesting so I just threw together my own version of hybrid Cleric/Paladin and figured I'd post it and maybe give you another view.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Hybrid, level 11
Longtooth Shifter, Cleric|Paladin, Warpriest
Hybrid Paladin: Hybrid Paladin Reflex
Hybrid Talent: Paladin Armor Proficiency
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Holy Symbol)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 13, Dex 11, Int 9, Wis 21, Cha 13.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 12.
AC: 26 Fort: 20 Reflex: 18 Will: 21
HP: 76 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 19
TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +9, Insight +17, Religion +9, Athletics +13
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Arcana +4, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +10, Heal +10, History +4, Intimidate +6, Nature +10, Perception +12, Stealth +1, Streetwise +6, Thievery +1
FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Mighty Challenge
Level 4: Battle Awareness
Level 6: Versatile Expertise
Level 8: Wary Fighter
Level 10: Healer's Implement
Level 11: Honored Foe
POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Holy Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Sacred Flame
Hybrid encounter 1: Healing Strike
Hybrid daily 1: Moment of Glory
Hybrid utility 2: Cure Light Wounds (retrained to Bless Weapon at Level 5)
Hybrid encounter 3: Trial of Strength
Hybrid daily 5: Unrelenting Punishment
Hybrid utility 6: Bastion of Health
Hybrid encounter 7: Zealous Sanction
Hybrid daily 9: Crucial Resurgence
Hybrid utility 10: Mass Cure Light Wounds
ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Plate Armor, Heavy Shield, Longsword, Holy Symbol
First thing to note is that this guy is not a striker, he's very much a leader/defender. With the sole exception of Holystrike and Bless Weapon there isn't a power on my guy worth calling a striker power. Personally, I'd say trying to throw striker in the mix would stretch things too thin. But that's just me, you can decide for yourself how much striking you feel you can fit in.
Now one thing I always hear about clerics is that they have an absurd amount of healing, more than you'll ever reasonably use. I say that's great because if you're a hybrid Cleric you should be able to end up with just the right amount of healing for a Leader.
So I guess it's really a question of if you can defend well enough. I think with mighty challenge, battle awareness and eventually Warpriest you can do a respectable job of defending.
Really though this is just what I would do. To get down to brass tacks I'd say there are only a couple things in my build that I would consider a truly high priority.
1) Sacred Flame - Alright, maybe you want to go with Astral Seal for extra good healing but I think that for the price of 1 At-Will you get all the save granting ability you'll ever likely need. To me that's too good to pass up.
2) Bastion of Health - This is basically how you get back that second Healing Word you lost. It kind of sucks having to wait until 6th level and it's not perfect but it gets the job done.
3) Battle Awareness - First off this nets you training in Athletics which with all that armor check penalty will be quite helpful. Secondly, you can smack someone in the head if they try to shift away from you. Plus it opens up Pit Fighter if you really want to do more damage.
4) Warpriest - Alright, this isn't really that necessary I just love this paragon path. The reason being that it gives you some real defending power. Of course that comes kind of late (level 16) and you should definitely consider what level you'll reasonably get to when playing a character but I think Warpriest is one of the few PP's that is a total package. Great level 11 features especially considering you get 3 of them. The level 11 encounter is solid healing. The level 12 utility is somewhat unreliable but the effects are strong. So even if you never get to level 16 you've got some solid stuff to work with.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Hybrid, level 11
Longtooth Shifter, Cleric|Paladin, Warpriest
Hybrid Paladin: Hybrid Paladin Reflex
Hybrid Talent: Paladin Armor Proficiency
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Holy Symbol)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 13, Dex 11, Int 9, Wis 21, Cha 13.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 12.
AC: 26 Fort: 20 Reflex: 18 Will: 21
HP: 76 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 19
TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +9, Insight +17, Religion +9, Athletics +13
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Arcana +4, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +10, Heal +10, History +4, Intimidate +6, Nature +10, Perception +12, Stealth +1, Streetwise +6, Thievery +1
FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Mighty Challenge
Level 4: Battle Awareness
Level 6: Versatile Expertise
Level 8: Wary Fighter
Level 10: Healer's Implement
Level 11: Honored Foe
POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Holy Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Sacred Flame
Hybrid encounter 1: Healing Strike
Hybrid daily 1: Moment of Glory
Hybrid utility 2: Cure Light Wounds (retrained to Bless Weapon at Level 5)
Hybrid encounter 3: Trial of Strength
Hybrid daily 5: Unrelenting Punishment
Hybrid utility 6: Bastion of Health
Hybrid encounter 7: Zealous Sanction
Hybrid daily 9: Crucial Resurgence
Hybrid utility 10: Mass Cure Light Wounds
ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Plate Armor, Heavy Shield, Longsword, Holy Symbol
First thing to note is that this guy is not a striker, he's very much a leader/defender. With the sole exception of Holystrike and Bless Weapon there isn't a power on my guy worth calling a striker power. Personally, I'd say trying to throw striker in the mix would stretch things too thin. But that's just me, you can decide for yourself how much striking you feel you can fit in.
Now one thing I always hear about clerics is that they have an absurd amount of healing, more than you'll ever reasonably use. I say that's great because if you're a hybrid Cleric you should be able to end up with just the right amount of healing for a Leader.
So I guess it's really a question of if you can defend well enough. I think with mighty challenge, battle awareness and eventually Warpriest you can do a respectable job of defending.
Really though this is just what I would do. To get down to brass tacks I'd say there are only a couple things in my build that I would consider a truly high priority.
1) Sacred Flame - Alright, maybe you want to go with Astral Seal for extra good healing but I think that for the price of 1 At-Will you get all the save granting ability you'll ever likely need. To me that's too good to pass up.
2) Bastion of Health - This is basically how you get back that second Healing Word you lost. It kind of sucks having to wait until 6th level and it's not perfect but it gets the job done.
3) Battle Awareness - First off this nets you training in Athletics which with all that armor check penalty will be quite helpful. Secondly, you can smack someone in the head if they try to shift away from you. Plus it opens up Pit Fighter if you really want to do more damage.
4) Warpriest - Alright, this isn't really that necessary I just love this paragon path. The reason being that it gives you some real defending power. Of course that comes kind of late (level 16) and you should definitely consider what level you'll reasonably get to when playing a character but I think Warpriest is one of the few PP's that is a total package. Great level 11 features especially considering you get 3 of them. The level 11 encounter is solid healing. The level 12 utility is somewhat unreliable but the effects are strong. So even if you never get to level 16 you've got some solid stuff to work with.
@Stat: Good job. I think this is what a good Str/Wis Paladin/Cleric should look like. It's a primary defender with healing abilities.
I see that you take a lot of healing powers with your utilities. Not necessarily a bad choice, but it depends on whether there is another leader in the party or not, and how suicidal your fellow party members are. If there is someone else who also provides healing, there may be other, better powers. I personally prefer buffing allies so the party needs less healing.
I see that you take a lot of healing powers with your utilities. Not necessarily a bad choice, but it depends on whether there is another leader in the party or not, and how suicidal your fellow party members are. If there is someone else who also provides healing, there may be other, better powers. I personally prefer buffing allies so the party needs less healing.
