Shadowdark Finally Played Shadowdark

[Micah Sweet]

Then you have to make sure no class only has magic to solve their problems. Only way I see for this type of game to work is no magic classes and we just do rituals.

Disagree. This is a team game, and not every PC is going to contribute equally to all situations. And every character has their own judgment and ability as a person to fall back on and help when their class features can't get the job done.

 

[Mannahnin]

I agree. Even Gygax didn't stick to the 3d6 in order. It's been a mess since AD&D, and shouldn't be a standard method, because you end up having to mulligan and spend way more time than needed to generate characters (like rolling 15 sets of stats or whatever).

This is one reason I like the "flip/mirror" method so much, because it eliminates "hopeless characters" and raises the average a bit, without any re-rolls. There are other ways to eliminate the re-rolls, of course. In a game I ran last year I had each player generate one set of ability scores, and then wrote down all those sets on a piece of paper, and each player could use whichever set they wanted of all those generated, and arrange to taste.

But it's a fair point that random rolls don't really support a game expectation for characters to start out with stats high enough for bonuses. Probably the better baseline rule in that case is point buy or standard array. I think OD&D, B/X and BECMI also do a pretty good job with 3d6 by allowing point-trading to increase your Prime Requisite. IME with those games, it's rare not to start with at least a 13 and a bonus in your PR, and pretty common to get a 16+ and a bigger bonus.

I think Dionne's error (IMO) is pairing the 3d6 method with the ability bonus chart of 3rd edition and onward. While making ability scores even more important to character success than they were in older editions.

I don't think it's an error at all. I think it's a thoughtful design decision, paired with the advancement (Talent) charts which usually give you at least a +1 to a check on a core character function, bearing in mind that every 2 points of ability increase normally includes a +1 to such checks.

But all this is to say that Shadowdark (and the OSR) just isn't for me. I recognize that people love these games, so it must be hitting something right for those audiences. For me, if I'm gonna play a dungeon crawler, I'd prefer just playing HeroQuest.

Hey, if you've got a game that serves you and gives you fun in that role, that's great!

 

[nevin]

Disagree. This is a team game, and not every PC is going to contribute equally to all situations. And every character has their own judgment and ability as a person to fall back on and help when their class features can't get the job done.

Disagree with you. If magic is an unreliable feature then having a game where the player has to attempt to be a team member by relying solely on luck is simply unfun and unfair. Unless we are going to make all the martial stuff that random as well I consider it simply a bad idea.

 

[Mannahnin]

Disagree with you. If magic is an unreliable feature then having a game where the player has to attempt to be a team member by relying solely on luck is simply unfun and unfair. Unless we are going to make all the martial stuff that random as well I consider it simply a bad idea.

Martials have always had to roll to attack. And hope the enemies roll badly to hit them in turn. Their success has always been a combination of strategy and luck.

Having roll to cast just means it's on more of the same playing field. A mix of strategy (when to deploy spells, when to use Luck tokens) and luck (roll good!).

You could argue that under a roll to cast system casters are more at the mercy of luck, because their spells can run out on any given day, but one could argue just as well that martials are in turn more at the mercy of luck in the form of enemy attack rolls, which casters receive fewer of.

 

[TheAlkaizer]

(although they use playbooks by default to build characters, rather than traditional character creation, although you end up with very recognizable AD&D-adjacent characters)

What doe that mean concretely?

Playbooks is an aspect of PotA I haven't really dove into. I do own Beyond the Wall but haven't got to read it yet.

 

[Arilyn]

Disagree with you. If magic is an unreliable feature then having a game where the player has to attempt to be a team member by relying solely on luck is simply unfun and unfair. Unless we are going to make all the martial stuff that random as well I consider it simply a bad idea.

Shadowdark has a lot less spells relying on saving throws. In D&D many spells fizzle because of saves. In SD, if you do not lose the spell you can keep casting it. Wizards start with 3 spells and priests 2. At 1st level you gain your first talent and all of them will make the wizard better at magic and the priest either better at magic or combat.

Looking at the wizard. Since Shadowdark says characters must have at least a 14, we can assume that most wizards start with at least a 14 in Int. The talent table is weighted toward giving you a plus 2 intelligence or an advantage on casting one spell you know. If you roll outside the average range for a talent you could learn an extra spell, choose any talent you want or start with a magic item you made.

The d20 is swingy, so yes, you might have terrible luck and have all your spells fizzle. But that will probably only be one session. I mean, I'm famous at our table for making strong warriors who cannot hit a single thing during their first sessions.

And the spells are good! Charm Person lasts 1d8 days and no save if they're level 2 or less. No saves with a fireball. If you get a critical success, you can choose to double any aspect of the spell you want like damage, range, duration, effect, etc. And yeah, critical failures cause a mishap but magic shouldn't be something sane people dabble in. But adventurers aren't sane...

Anyway, magic in SD is not just a 50/50 luck thing. You need an 11 to cast a 1st level spell. You'll probably have a +2 or +3, so that's an 8 or 9 needed for a successful cast. Magic Missile casts with advantage, so a good spell to take if you want something that'll be more dependable. Magic is definitely geared toward being more useful than not. It's just not fully reliable. And as players gain levels, the magic fails a lot less.

And as much as you have bad streaks, you are also going to have hot streaks and just not lose spells. Overall, I find it fun and it feels more like magic.

 

[TwoSix]

What doe that mean concretely?

Playbooks is an aspect of PotA I haven't really dove into. I do own Beyond the Wall but haven't got to read it yet.

1) You pick a playbook, such as Devout Acolyte, Fae Foundling, or New Guardsman. Each playbook specifies a specific class for your character (either Warrior, Rogue, Mage, or a multiclass). The playbook will also specify a starting array of stats, usually 8s and some 10s or a 12.

2) The playbook has 6 questions for your character, and a table for the answers (usually 6, 8, or 12 possible answers). As an example, the first question in the Devout Acolyte playbook is "What did your parents do in the village? What did you learn from them?".
If you roll a 7, the answer is "Your parents ran the local inn. You grew up meeting many travellers and hearing their tales.", which gives you some background info, and adds +2 to Cha and +1 to Int, Dex, and Wis.
On a 5, the answer is "Your father was the local smith and taught you both hammer and bellows.", and you gain +2 Str, +1 Dex and Cha, and the Smithing Skill.

3) Each playbook also has one question where you share backstory with another player. As an example, the Devout Acolyte has this question: "When you were most in need, the gods aided you. When were you most desperate? The player to your right was there with you."
If you roll a 6, the answer would be "A strange, small man with knotted skin was attacking those who came near the old mine. You
confronted the creature, holding it at bay while your friend struck it with iron and sent it running. The friend to your right drove off the creature, and gains +1 Int.", and you would gain +2 Int and the Mystical Shield spell.

4) The playbook also gives basic rules like starting hit points, attack bonuses, saves, etc.

 

[Retreater]

A fighter isn't limited to 2 swings of a sword per day. A miss with a martial attack doesn't mean that your character is "spent" for the day.
Let me put it this way. I had a 3rd level SD wizard with one attack spell (pregenerated at a convention). I missed with my one attack spell on the 1st round of the first combat. The rest of the session, the only thing I could contribute in a fight was a dagger attack, which paired nicely with my single digit HP and AC 11.
Sure, that could've been a poorly designed character with a bad spell loadout. But heck, let me at least get one spell to work if I'm the darned wizard.
It's not fun to fail on your limited resources and have to sit in the back for the rest of the adventure.
The fact that Shadowdark can permit that as a player experience demonstrates why it's not for me. I'll never run it. I'll never choose to play it.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

What doe that mean concretely?

Playbooks is an aspect of PotA I haven't really dove into. I do own Beyond the Wall but haven't got to read it yet.

In Flatland Games, you pick your playbook (stuff like "wizard's apprentice," "third-born noble child," "feral child," etc.) and then roll together. Each roll tells you about your character's background or a connection to one of the other PCs. Each bit of info also gives you new stats and abilities appropriate for your class (basically 1E classes, with multiclassing).

At the end, your group has a backstory, randomly generated abilities that are still tightly themed to your character concept, etc. In Beyond the Wall, this process also fleshes out your starting village with direct connections to your characters, etc.

It's a similar, but different process, in Through Sunken Lands and Grizzled Adventurers. In GA, it's really funny, because these characters have known each other for decades, and you have to roll about old grudges and details of family and friends.

 

[Scribe]

Disagree with you. If magic is an unreliable feature then having a game where the player has to attempt to be a team member by relying solely on luck is simply unfun and unfair. Unless we are going to make all the martial stuff that random as well I consider it simply a bad idea.

Consider a Fighter swinging their 1 attack in combat, and they have to still get a hit in.

It is the same.