Shadowdark Finally Played Shadowdark

[Mannahnin]

Ok fair enough. But can a melee burn out for the day if they fail?

They can miss all their attacks in a given round, get hit by a round of attacks and die. This is less likely to happen to the Wizard, who will infrequently be attacked in melee by comparison.

A 1st level TSR D&D M-U has one spell. One. Magic Missile might get lucky and roll enough damage to kill a weak monster, but that's generally a mug's game. Sleep is the really nasty no-saves first level option, but doesn't affect undead or constructs. Charm Person is awesome, but has limited targets and has a roughly 25%-35% chance of the enemy making their save. Light is another popular low level option because it can have non-combat applications OR blind a monster in combat (same chance to save).

A 1st level SD Wizard has three spells. Each one probably has a 60% chance to work. Just by itself, that means the MOST likely outcome is 2 of them work, and for any which work, you get to try to cast them again later! The odds of all three failing on the first try are... what, 21.6%? (I'm not good at combinatorics; someone check me on that ). Lower than that 25% chance of a low level monster Saving against Charm Person or Light and negating the M-U for the day. If the SD caster wants (or if they roll well on their first level talent) at least one can have Advantage to cast. And they often have a luck token handy to re-roll an important spell.

So the floor is similarly low for the SD Wizard as the TSR M-U, but less likely to happen. The average is in favor of the SD Wizard. The ceiling is WAY in favor of the SD Wizard, who can potentially get lucky and just keep casting leveled spells all session.

 

[Retreater]

Assuming that game ran by the normal rules, you had five spells and a better than 50/50 chance to cast each one. Plus probably at least one Luck token for a re-roll.

No Luck tokens.
I don't have the character sheet on hand, but let's say I had a +2 from Intelligence. I don't recall any advantage on spells from a talent, but I think I might've had +1 on casting checks. So that's +3. DC 11 to cast a 1st level spell and DC 12 to cast a 2nd level spell.
So that's a 65% chance to cast a 1st level spell and 60% to cast a 2nd level spell. Yes, better than 50/50 with the talent and +2 modifier. But that's also a 35% to do absolutely nothing and to completely lose the spell for the day.
What's the chance that you get to cast that 1st level spell again, that it actually works a second time? 42%.

Compare to any TSR edition, where you'd have three spells, and any offensive spells other than Sleep or Magic Missile would have a 25%-35% chance of failure (assuming the usual monsters you'd expect to see at low level) through the target making its save. And you would have zero ability to roll well and cast the spell again. Zero ability to roll a crit casting and get extra effects.

I would take a 100% chance of a utility spell working (or Sleep or Magic Missile) than a 65% chance - and a 5% chance for criticals and a 5% chance for a wizard mishap.

But back in the day, in my TSR memories, we didn't do dungeon crawls. We'd have 1-3 combats a day. My experience with Shadowdark at conventions (official Arcane Library adventures and GMs) were "monster hotels" that couldn't be avoided, negotiated, etc. My experience with it at a home game was an old TSR adventure that quickly overwhelmed us with random encounters. "You come to an intersection in a hallway. There's a hobgoblin squad there ready for ambush - you're all dead."

It's just a big no from me.

 

[TheAlkaizer]

@TwoSix @Whizbang Dustyboots That actually sounds neat!

I don't know if I'd have all my game use this, but it's an interesting middle ground between a classic character creation and a pregen. I might give it a try in the future!

 

[Scribe]

My experience with Shadowdark at conventions (official Arcane Library adventures and GMs) were "monster hotels" that couldn't be avoided, negotiated, etc. My experience with it at a home game was an old TSR adventure that quickly overwhelmed us with random encounters. "You come to an intersection in a hallway. There's a hobgoblin squad there ready for ambush - you're all dead."

Yes, you played with bad DMs who didn't even know or follow the games rules. We covered that.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

@TwoSix @Whizbang Dustyboots That actually sounds neat!

I don't know if I'd have all my game use this, but it's an interesting middle ground between a classic character creation and a pregen. I might give it a try in the future!

It's worth just grabbing the basic game to read through the way it generates player groups and starting towns. And all of the Flatland Games have a great zero-prep way to run adventures which is really impressive -- and they generate consistently good adventures in my experience.

 

[Mannahnin]

No Luck tokens.
I don't have the character sheet on hand, but let's say I had a +2 from Intelligence. I don't recall any advantage on spells from a talent, but I think I might've had +1 on casting checks. So that's +3. DC 11 to cast a 1st level spell and DC 12 to cast a 2nd level spell.
So that's a 65% chance to cast a 1st level spell and 60% to cast a 2nd level spell. Yes, better than 50/50 with the talent and +2 modifier. But that's also a 35% to do absolutely nothing and to completely lose the spell for the day.
What's the chance that you get to cast that 1st level spell again, that it actually works a second time? 42%.


I would take a 100% chance of a utility spell working (or Sleep or Magic Missile) than a 65% chance - and a 5% chance for criticals and a 5% chance for a wizard mishap.

No luck tokens, at 3rd level? We already know the DM was awful. That's just another stone in the sling. At 3rd level if Human you had three Talent rolls. Two if non-human. Each one has a 30/36 chance of increasing your chances to cast - either by increasing your Int or your Casting Checks directly or by giving you Advantage on a spell of your choice. 1/36 was a free magic item. 5/36 an additional spell.

You can have a preference, but the math, flat out, is that Magic Missile or anything other than Sleep is almost guaranteed to do less than the SD 1st level Wizard. Sleep is the one big exception. It's the low-level TSR MU encounter nuke. It doesn't work against everything, but it's great against anything at low levels but undead or constructs.

But back in the day, in my TSR memories, we didn't do dungeon crawls. We'd have 1-3 combats a day. My experience with Shadowdark at conventions (official Arcane Library adventures and GMs) were "monster hotels" that couldn't be avoided, negotiated, etc. My experience with it at a home game was an old TSR adventure that quickly overwhelmed us with random encounters. "You come to an intersection in a hallway. There's a hobgoblin squad there ready for ambush - you're all dead."

Sure. Ran as described, that would be equally true of any version of D&D except MAYBE 4E. But you'd probably get slaughtered in 4E too. It would just take longer.

1-3 combats a day is much more how low level Shadowdark is supposed to run.

 

[Retreater]

Yes, you played with bad DMs who didn't even know or follow the games rules. We covered that.

The problem is that there's nothing to tell them that they're not following the rules or that they're being bad GMs. Because when you follow the rules as written, everyone dies. It's the soft skills as a player and GM that could make it survivable - and those aren't covered.
It's as if there's this secret "you must learn the craft of GMing with an unbroken lineage back to Dave Arneson or you don't know how to run this system." In short, it's "gate-keepy."
It's bad design to assume that every GM will magically "know" how to run this system instead of creating a system with the design expectations that are robust enough to handle it.
If you're Arcane Library - you shouldn't create convention adventures like that. You also shouldn't presume compatibility with B/X D&D if it doesn't work.
Instead of having pages of random charts, level titles, and other pointless information there for nostalgia's sake, include some better GM guidance.

 

[Scribe]

The problem is that there's nothing to tell them that they're not following the rules or that they're being bad GMs.

Yes there is, it's literally in the book. I gave you the page on my first response, the other issue is Reactions, which is absolutely covered.

Bad GMs who didn't run the game as written + misaligned expectations = frustration.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Disagree with you. If magic is an unreliable feature then having a game where the player has to attempt to be a team member by relying solely on luck is simply unfun and unfair. Unless we are going to make all the martial stuff that random as well I consider it simply a bad idea.

Well, you opinion is certainly valid, but obviously not everyone thinks the SD magic rules are "unfun and unfair", so maybe it's just not for you?

 

[Scribe]

I don't have the character sheet on hand, but let's say I had a +2 from Intelligence. I don't recall any advantage on spells from a talent, but I think I might've had +1 on casting checks. So that's +3. DC 11 to cast a 1st level spell and DC 12 to cast a 2nd level spell.

2nd Level Spell = Level 3.

Lets actually look at this here.

Assumption: 14 Int at Level 1, pre-talent.

+2

Elf - Because you want to build a Wizard that casts spells right? +1 = +3

Talent 1 - One additional spell.
Talent 2 (Level 3) - +1 Spell Casting (+4)

You know

5 Level 1 Spell - Cast at DC11
1 Level 2 Spell - Cast at DC12

With a +4, are you not looking at at least 70%?

Someone check the math?