Find Steed, Find Greater Steed, and Combat

[jayoungr]

Further responses...

It’ a 4th level spell. It’s in the same class as Mordenkeinan’s Faithful Hound and Charm Monster, both of which make a minion that can attack at will.

I just double-checked those two spells, and they both give the PC an ally that will attack targets it considers to be hostile to its friend. Neither one allows the PC to dictate the hound or charmed monster's actions. The monster also gets a saving throw in the case of the "charm monster" spell.

In the case of Find Greater Steed, the player wants to use it to summon a creature that the character can direct at will, that also will serve as a mount. That doesn't seem like it's on par with the other two.

If you don’t like how they use it, don’t nerf them, give them a challenge meant to counter what they are doing.

Using a spell the way it was intended to be used isn't nerfing anyone. If it really is the intent of the spell to give the PC a mount that they can command and still do all their regular attacks, then fine.

However, don't forget this is a cast and forget spell. it's like Find Familiar, it has no time limit. Once cast, the steed is there until dismissed or it dies. It doesn't actually take up a spell slot.

It did take up a spell slot in this case, because the party were in rowboats far from shore, and the PC had to use a slot to summon the steed.

 

[Dausuul]

I edited the original post to clarify. The PCs were in a rowboat attacking a creature in the water, with the steed not present. The player wanted to have the PC summon the steed and then command it to fly over and attack the creature on every turn, without having the PC mount and with the PC still taking all his regular attacks.

Wait, do I understand that the PCs were already in combat when trying to cast the spell?

If so, what were their enemies doing for the 100 rounds it takes to cast find greater steed?

 

[tglassy]

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/970111071955464198

End of debate.

 

[Oofta]

The way we run it in our games is that the steed (even the base Summon Steed) will fight alongside the paladin and generally do what the paladin wants it to do.

This is an intelligent mount that is bonded to the summoner. As an intelligent mount it gets it's own attacks and actions. The player isn't dominating the creature, but it is "an unusually strong, intelligent an loyal" steed that understands the same language as the caster.

As an intelligent creature it should probably have it's own initiative, for simplicity we always have it go on the same turn as the player.

It's really not that powerful in play and in my experience the paladin with a mount doesn't really play much slower than, say, a fighter of the same level.

 

[iserith]

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/970111071955464198

End of debate.

Since when has a ruling by Jeremy Crawford ended a debate? It just starts new ones in my experience.

 

[Dausuul]

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/970111071955464198

End of debate.

Jeremy Crawford's Twitter feed is not a debate-ender. It is not an official ruling, merely one designer's hot take.

The Sage Advice column on the Wizards site does constitute an official ruling, but it is still one step removed from actual RAW. It's not RAW until it has been printed in a book or issued as errata.

(And, of course, even a direct RAW quote is not necessarily a debate-ender, depending on the debate. In this case, however, the OP does seem to be asking what the rules are rather than what they should be, so a conclusive RAW answer would settle it.)

 

[Blue]

The rules seem pretty clear that it acts on it's own and does not take the character's actions.

There are two cases:

Mounted
Because the spell gives the Find Steed an Int of 6 (and explicitly describes it as Intelligent), it falls under the Intelligent Creatures section of Mounted Combat (PHB ph 198) which act independently. They have their own initiative (a pain while riding them in combat) and take their own actions.

Unmounted
It's an intelligent and loyal celestial/fey/fiend. Like any other ally it has it's own initiative and action economy.

 

[tglassy]

Which is what I said, but then the OP started talking about the intent of the spell. The intent is determined by the developers, of which Crawford is one, so if he doesn’t represent the intent, then there is no intent, and words mean nothing, and you’re the GM so screw with your players’ fun if you want.

When the player comes up with some combination that is game breaking, don’t shut them down and take their fun. Break the game right back and up the anti. He wants a pet Griffin that does what he wants and he can ride into battle? Cool. Now he’s ready for Mind Flayers.

 

[jayoungr]

Wait, do I understand that the PCs were already in combat when trying to cast the spell?

If so, what were their enemies doing for the 100 rounds it takes to cast find greater steed?

They were not already in combat when the spell was cast. They were hunting sea creatures, so the rest of the group just waited for the bard to finish his summons before attacking. (I didn't realize it took 10 minutes, though! That's useful to remember for future reference.)

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/970111071955464198

End of debate.

Thanks, that's helpful! It doesn't say anything about what happens if the summoner chooses not to mount the steed, though.

This is an intelligent mount that is bonded to the summoner. As an intelligent mount it gets it's own attacks and actions. The player isn't dominating the creature, but it is "an unusually strong, intelligent an loyal" steed that understands the same language as the caster.

As an intelligent creature it should probably have it's own initiative, for simplicity we always have it go on the same turn as the player.

Because the spell gives the Find Steed an Int of 6 (and explicitly describes it as Intelligent), it falls under the Intelligent Creatures section of Mounted Combat (PHB ph 198) which act independently. They have their own initiative (a pain while riding them in combat) and take their own actions.

Unmounted
It's an intelligent and loyal celestial/fey/fiend. Like any other ally it has it's own initiative and action economy.

The summoned steed is intelligent with a small "i," in the sense that it is much smarter than other creatures of its kind. A normal gryphon (or griffon, to use the MM spelling ) has an intelligence of 2. But it's not clear whether an intelligence score of 6 means it's smart enough to be considered a mount that always acts independently (expressed below as Intelligent with a capital "I").

The example of an Intelligent mount (i.e., one that always acts independently) is a dragon. Even wyrmling dragons have the same intelligence (10) as an average human. Is that, then, the minimum intelligence score needed to be considered an Intelligent mount? If not, what is the minimum--and more importantly, who decides what the minimum is?

Mounts that are not Intelligent can act independently if the rider chooses not to control them. But they can also be controlled; presumably an Intelligent mount cannot, since the PHB specifies that it always acts independently.

 

[Oofta]

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/970111071955464198

End of debate.

I appreciate the theory* that this will end debate but this the internet.

*I happen to agree with Mr Crawford on this one. If I didn't my response would be something along the lines of "Crawford isn't the boss of me!"