D&D 4E Find the Anime/Video games in 4e

[Mercule]

The biggest problem I have with threads of this nature is that they tend to follow a pattern.

True. I probably should have abandoned the thread before getting irritable (which is more true than intolerant).

There is a cultural difference between the East and the West -- someone stop me if I'm wrong there. Sometimes the differences can be as subtle as how a word or a name rolls off the tongue.

I can't honestly say that I only like pseudo-Medieval European fantasy, because that isn't true. I can honestly say that those elements that I identify as Eastern (meaning that they evoke an Eastern feel to me, not that I scholarly research them and find them to have definitively originated in the East), I dislike.

That does not make those elements bad. Nor does it make peopel who like/prefer those elements bad. It most certainly does not men that Eastern culture is bad. It means that I have a preferrence. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm quite certain that all of the things I dislike aren't even Eastern and there are some Eastern elements I'd welcome in a game. But, it gets the 80/20 of my meaning across.

The discussion is pointless, though. If I say "I don't like anime," the stock response is either "You haven't seen good anime, then. There are a lot of types of anime," or, "Anime uses he same tropes as lots of Western movies/cartoons," or, "How could you not like anime? It has X, Y, and Z." Usually, that's followed up with a request to be specific about my dislkes.

Those specifics are then rebutted by incredibly vague generalizations. For example, "I don't like flowery names," is countered with, "Western styles have names, too."

Alternatively, I may be counciled to broaden my horizons and see what I think of some anime-inspired elements. Or, I could just change the names and/or flavor text. Yeah, right. I really want to go through a game's core rulebook and change 25% (number pulled from butt) of the section headers, then try and coordinate the penciled in terms with my players. Maybe the anime fans could try to broaden their horizons a bit and use D&D to play, you know, classic D&D style fantasy.

Of course, I could just use a previous edition for my game. But just because I like the flavor of a game system doesn't mean I am not interested in updating and improving the rules.

Maybe what I should do is stop trying to categorize my likes and dislikes for people. I could just list off a bunch of names I dislike and a bunch of names I don't. There seem to be no lack of people smarter than me who could better identify the common threads and let me know how to quickly and easily sum up my likes and dislikes without getting my terms wrong.

To start with, I dislike the following names:
- Lightning Panther Strike
- Twin Thunder Stance
- Emerald Frost Technique
- Koryu
- Ryu
- Randori
- Spadroon
- Jogo du Pau

I like the following:
- Bonetti's Defense
- Capoferro
- Savate
- Jitte
- Coup de pied bas
- Pflug
- Agrippa

For the record, Capoferro: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridolfo_Capo_Ferro

 

[Pale]

Case in point being the Barbarian. Is there any instance in Europe of guys leaping on other people's backs and biting them, or clawing at their face? Does that sound like the Goths?

Sounds like the behavior of Pict warriors to me. So yeah, there is.

 

[bonethug0108]

The discussion is pointless, though. If I say "I don't like anime," the stock response is either "You haven't seen good anime, then. There are a lot of types of anime," or, "Anime uses he same tropes as lots of Western movies/cartoons," or, "How could you not like anime? It has X, Y, and Z." Usually, that's followed up with a request to be specific about my dislkes.

Those specifics are then rebutted by incredibly vague generalizations. For example, "I don't like flowery names," is countered with, "Western styles have names, too."

This is why you should say you don't like flowery names and not that you don't like anime and d&d is becoming too anime because of these names.

When you make a false claim like that, expect it to get picked apart. As cadfan said, just say what you mean. Don't try to relate it to something else you hate and then say you hate anime and d&d is becoming too much like it. Just say you hate flowery names to begin with.

 

[Mercule]

Except that I don't believe all the ideas that are universal need to be segregated to "Culture Book Over Here". The 4e D&D book does not need to drip European Fantasy for it to be D&D, it just has to let you be able to run European Fantasy.

A shaman who speaks to spirits? Not Medieval European Fantasy, but it fits in Fantasy.

A Hercules-style strong man who uses his fists, grapples and pummels his enemy? Not Medieval Fantasy, but fantasy.

Who do these need to be shoved into the Oriental Book when they fit in D&D without cultural significance.

I disliked the Monk in the 3e book both because of its mechanical issues, and because the only design is the Kung Fu Mystic. How about a straight unarmed fighter without mystical abilities?

The "Monk" class, without the oriental flavor and mystical abilities, can range from Assassin to Body Guard to Operative.

So I don't think D&D should be limited to "Just knights, wizards and rangers, and everything else is sequestered to the cultural books". C'mon, fantasy is a little more broad than that.

This is pretty much my thoughts -- as I said in that other thread.

I have no issue with D&D being able to handle a broader range. UNLESS it means I have to put significant work into the sort of flavor I want or feel like I'm steeping in "anime" (in quotes because I know it's not the exact word, feel free to supply a better one) the entire time I'm reading the books. I rather have no art than have big eyes, small mounth style.

 

[Pale]

My only problem with statements like "I don't like anime" is that it sounds just as ludicrous to me as "I don't like soup". The category is so broad, the styles of animation that fall under the 'anime' name umbrella so diverse, that it's mind-boggling to me that you could not like all of it completely.

I think what you really mean is "I don't care for any of the examples of anime that I've seen and don't care to acquire a taste for it". It's a much more honest statement to make and would bring fewer responses that you hate.

 

[Rechan]

I've played plenty of science fiction games where shield regenrated or reset to full if they dont' get kocked down in a round and power systems allowed effectively unlimited use of weapons if one marshalled resources correctly. Halo and computer games hardly have a lock on that concept.

All of a character's abilities in the HERO game system cost Endurance. Even punching someone costs endurance (though a very small number). Even swinging a deadly sword costs a lot of endurance.

After so long, your pool of Endurance runs out.

You receive a number of Endurance at the end of the combat round equal to a certain stat (Your Body + Constitution/5 I believe). And you can spend one of your turns to get some Endurance back.

HERO has been out for a long time, using what seems like Per Encounter abilities that are fed by a pool.

 

[Mercule]

This is why you should say you don't like flowery names and not that you don't like anime and d&d is becoming too anime because of these names.

Um... this thread specifically asked what elements of 4E reminded people of anime in a negative way. Your above statement implies that it would be bad to make a statement in this thread that was actually on topic.

When you make a false claim like that, expect it to get picked apart. As cadfan said, just say what you mean. Don't try to relate it to something else you hate and then say you hate anime and d&d is becoming too much like it. Just say you hate flowery names to begin with.

That was the opinion stated -- and placed within context of this thread.

Once again, the entire point of this thread was to find similarities between D&D and anime. And the question was asked, pretty much specifically, of those who did not like those similar elements.

How would you have answered?

 

[kennew142]

True. I probably should have abandoned the thread before getting irritable (which is more true than intolerant).

I didn't assume that you were intolerant, just that the remark was. A statement I stand by, even if it was the result of irritation.

There is a cultural difference between the East and the West -- someone stop me if I'm wrong there. Sometimes the differences can be as subtle as how a word or a name rolls off the tongue.

I can't honestly say that I only like pseudo-Medieval European fantasy, because that isn't true. I can honestly say that those elements that I identify as Eastern (meaning that they evoke an Eastern feel to me, not that I scholarly research them and find them to have definitively originated in the East), I dislike.

That does not make those elements bad. Nor does it make peopel who like/prefer those elements bad. It most certainly does not men that Eastern culture is bad. It means that I have a preferrence. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm quite certain that all of the things I dislike aren't even Eastern and there are some Eastern elements I'd welcome in a game. But, it gets the 80/20 of my meaning across.

I have been in the same boat for most of my gaming history. Because I am a classicist and a historian (with a late antiquity specialty), I have tended to run games that very closely mimic that period. I've grown out of that style (or at least I am trying to do so). I don't mean to imply that anyone who wants a purely European flavored game needs to grow, just that my own personal growth as a gamer is taking me in this direction.

The discussion is pointless, though. If I say "I don't like anime," the stock response is either "You haven't seen good anime, then. There are a lot of types of anime," or, "Anime uses he same tropes as lots of Western movies/cartoons," or, "How could you not like anime? It has X, Y, and Z." Usually, that's followed up with a request to be specific about my dislkes.

I think this is true of most discussions of this nature. I have a sister-in-law who says she doesn't like Mexican food. Not only is this incomprehensible to me, but I know that there are so many styles of Mexican cuisine as to invalidate (in my mind) her statement. But the secret is that you cannot invalidate someone's opinion or gut reaction. It is a visceral reaction and may defy logic.

Those specifics are then rebutted by incredibly vague generalizations. For example, "I don't like flowery names," is countered with, "Western styles have names, too."

Alternatively, I may be counciled to broaden my horizons and see what I think of some anime-inspired elements. Or, I could just change the names and/or flavor text. Yeah, right. I really want to go through a game's core rulebook and change 25% (number pulled from butt) of the section headers, then try and coordinate the penciled in terms with my players. Maybe the anime fans could try to broaden their horizons a bit and use D&D to play, you know, classic D&D style fantasy.

Personally, I am hoping that D&D 4e will simulate both Western and Eastern style fantasy equally well.

Of course, I could just use a previous edition for my game. But just because I like the flavor of a game system doesn't mean I am not interested in updating and improving the rules.

I don't like it when people use the argument you should just keep playing the current edition if you don't like it. It's one thing when it is the mechanics we're discussing. If the new mechanics aren't for you, you probably should stick with an older edition. Everyone should feel free to express their hopes and desires for the upcoming edition. I do.

Maybe what I should do is stop trying to categorize my likes and dislikes for people. I could just list off a bunch of names I dislike and a bunch of names I don't. There seem to be no lack of people smarter than me who could better identify the common threads and let me know how to quickly and easily sum up my likes and dislikes without getting my terms wrong.

I think that saying you dislike asian themed named should be good enough. There will always be people who not only disagree with you, but will try to change your opinion. But Asian themed or anime themed would probably be as good a term as any.

To start with, I dislike the following names:
- Lightning Panther Strike
- Twin Thunder Stance
- Emerald Frost Technique
- Koryu
- Ryu
- Randori
- Spadroon
- Jogo du Pau

I'm with you 100%. I would add Golden Wyvern Adept, except that topic has already derailed many a thread!

I like the following:
- Bonetti's Defense
- Capoferro
- Savate
- Jitte
- Coup de pied bas
- Pflug
- Agrippa

I disagree 100%. I can't stand any of these names either. French and Italian don't exist in my campaign. It's still putting too much implied setting in the core rules. Count me as one of those GMs/players who would rather have very bland and boring names for feats and spells. I can provide the appropriate flavor for my game.

However, if I am going to see one style of naming, I may as well see the other as well. Neither suites my taste. I don't like feat names with animals or monsters in the name. I don't care whether the name comes from anime, video games or professional wrestling. I just don't like the sound of it, anymore than I like names in a foreign language that are meaningless to me (or to my campaign in the case of French, Spanish and Italian which I can usually read witihout a problem).

The fact is that neither of us is likely to get our way. The flowery names are likely here to stay. I hear about as many people praising them as hating them. In the end, I can only hope that these names are few and not too intrusive.

*************************************
I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread topic. As someone who has watched very little anime (and has liked about 20% of what he's seen), and has never really been into video games, I enjoy reading this thread and its related one. Some of the elements that some folks see an anime/video game derived, strike me as something out of traditional (not D&D inspired) fantasy.

 

[Rechan]

To start with, I dislike the following names:
- Emerald Frost Technique

I felt the need to single this one out for a reason*. In response to this, I have a question: Do these two sentences feel different?

"I am the keeper of the Sacred Flame, wielder of the flame of Anor. You shall not pass!"

"I am the keeper of the Emerald Frost, wielder of the biting cold of Anor. You shall not pass!"

Why is this question significant? The former comes from Lord of the Rings, when Gandalf faces the Balrog. The latter comes from me. The two sound pretty similar.

*I should note that I dislike arguing over names. That is one that I feel has been done to death on this forum. I still want to talk about Videogames, rather than ludicrous names, but I just wanted to point out the above. If names are the only link between 4e and Anime that can be found, I'm pretty sure we're safe.

 

[kennew142]

Sounds like the behavior of Pict warriors to me. So yeah, there is.

Wow. I've read most of the original sources that mention the picts and I've never heard of that behavior in history, maybe in Robert E. Howard's depiction (Bran Mak Morn, I believe).