D&D 5E Find the Path. What? Why is this a 6th level spell?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You took a specific example and turned into into a general rule. What if we instead asked why would Kelemvor offer it to his high priest in charge of burial practices?
Because the high priest asked for it. Kelemvor(and other gods) grant what the priests ask for. Maybe his high priest is invited to the local palace a lot and has hard time remembering where the lavatory is. To get to the palace lavatory very quickly, something he has issues with, he needs the quickest, most direct route and uses Find the Path.
 

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Reynard

Legend
Because the high priest asked for it. Kelemvor(and other gods) grant what the priests ask for. Maybe his high priest is invited to the local palace a lot and has hard time remembering where the lavatory is. To get to the palace lavatory very quickly, something he has issues with, he needs the quickest, most direct route and uses Find the Path.
I think you are going wide around the point here. The point isn't that no NPC is ever allowed to use any spells in the PHB. The point is that NPCs who are not murder hobo adventurers would have completely different tools at their disposal to do their jobs in the fantasy world.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think you are going wide around the point here. The point isn't that no NPC is ever allowed to use any spells in the PHB. The point is that NPCs who are not murder hobo adventurers would have completely different tools at their disposal to do their jobs in the fantasy world.
I think the answer is that such NPCS would generally CHOOSE other tools, not that tools such as Find the Path are unavailable to them. That priest of Kelemvor is unlikely to choose Find the Path during his duties as priest in charge of burial practices. Just like there are tools that PC adventurers rarely choose, but occasionally do if the situation demands it.
 

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Pedantic Grognard
You took a specific example and turned into into a general rule. What if we instead asked why would Kelemvor offer it to his high priest in charge of burial practices?
In fact, back in 2e, he doesn't offer it to his high priest, because find the path is over in the Divination sphere, and specialty priests of Kelemvor only are offered minor access to that sphere.

The problem from a world-building perspective remains; you cannot keep Troy from being discovered by denying every scholar in China the resources and education to go look for it, if there's even one Heinrich Schliemann in Europe.

Now, a setting could be written in a way that "NPCs who are not murder hobo adventurers . . . have completely different tools at their disposal to do their jobs in the fantasy world." My point in response, which you seem to have entirely missed, was specifically that for decades settings were not written that way, that the legacy settings are chock full of NPCs who have murder-hobo tools, and even backstories as murder hobos.
 

Reynard

Legend
In fact, back in 2e, he doesn't offer it to his high priest, because find the path is over in the Divination sphere, and specialty priests of Kelemvor only are offered minor access to that sphere.

The problem from a world-building perspective remains; you cannot keep Troy from being discovered by denying every scholar in China the resources and education to go look for it, if there's even one Heinrich Schliemann in Europe.

Now, a setting could be written in a way that "NPCs who are not murder hobo adventurers . . . have completely different tools at their disposal to do their jobs in the fantasy world." My point in response, which you seem to have entirely missed, was specifically that for decades settings were not written that way, that the legacy settings are chock full of NPCs who have murder-hobo tools, and even backstories as murder hobos.
And as I pointed out upthread, almost immediately NOC specific classes and magic appeared, primarily in Dragon Magazine but also in other supplements.
 

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Pedantic Grognard
And as I pointed out upthread, almost immediately NOC specific classes and magic appeared, primarily in Dragon Magazine but also in other supplements.
Yet the settings were written the way they were written anyway. "The setting you're writing an adventure for could have avoided this problem if someone had made different choices decades ago" is of no value to a person writing an adventure today.

If someone wants to put an element in a 5e adventure set in the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, they're stuck dealing with having it make sense in a world with NPCs who have the PC powers available to them. Even if the writers don't care about existing settings, after decades of D&D allowing scads of NPCs to have the same powers as PCs, it's a default assumption people are going to bring to any new D&D product. Revising a lightly-used spell's description at an edition change is a much smaller effort than convincing millions of people to change their expectations about whether NPCs can use PHB spells.
 

Reynard

Legend
If someone wants to put an element in a 5e adventure set in the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, they're stuck dealing with having it make sense in a world with NPCs who have the PC powers available to them.
No they aren't. The majority of players don't have any history with what came before, so WotC can say things like, "Volo is a commoner with +4 with Intelligence(History) and Charisma(Persuasion) checks." You don't have to give him fighter and bard levels. No one cares.
 

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Pedantic Grognard
No they aren't. The majority of players don't have any history with what came before, so WotC can say things like, "Volo is a commoner with +4 with Intelligence(History) and Charisma(Persuasion) checks." You don't have to give him fighter and bard levels. No one cares.
There was an edition of D&D written by people who thought that they didn't have to care about existing players' expectations, because new players didn't have them. I doubt anybody at WotC would dare say that it was a happy story, at least where the accountants could hear them.
 


Mort

Legend
Supporter
So, to clarify, if I have the gem on my person (in my pouch) and I get hit with a dispel magic (maybe I'm hasted or or Held or something), does the gem also get dispelled?

  • Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a successful check, the spell ends.
Lets say they choose 'a creature'. Every spell on that creature, 3rd or below gets dispelled an every spell above 3rd gets a spellcasting check and they get dispelled too. Does the gem count as 'a spell on the creature' or do you need to target the gem?

Are you asking if you could potentially lose the find the path if a dispell magic is cast by you (the creature)?

Since the range of find the path is "self", then the spell is clearly "on you" so, yes, I'd think a dispel magic could potentially cancel it.
 

Are you asking if you could potentially lose the find the path if a dispell magic is cast by you (the creature)?

Since the range of find the path is "self", then the spell is clearly "on you" so, yes, I'd think a dispel magic could potentially cancel it.
oh, crap. Wrong thread. I meant to post that in my Magic Jar thread! Sorry!
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
No they aren't. The majority of players don't have any history with what came before, so WotC can say things like, "Volo is a commoner with +4 with Intelligence(History) and Charisma(Persuasion) checks." You don't have to give him fighter and bard levels. No one cares.
The bolded part is incorrect. A lot of people care. Just not you. Some will agree with you and some won't. I won't. Why? Because I care and I like my NPCs to have class levels. I want the internal consistency that you don't seem to care about. A cleric is a cleric. If NPC clerics can do it, so can PCs. If PC clerics can do it, so can PCs.
 

Reynard

Legend
The bolded part is incorrect. A lot of people care. Just not you. Some will agree with you and some won't. I won't. Why? Because I care and I like my NPCs to have class levels. I want the internal consistency that you don't seem to care about. A cleric is a cleric. If NPC clerics can do it, so can PCs. If PC clerics can do it, so can PCs.
So how many spell levels are you willing to dedicate to Marriage Ceremony?
 


Well, I have yet to see anyone tell me they've seen it used in a 5e game so that tells me it's probably been nerfed so hard that it's not worth wasting a slot on.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Well, I have yet to see anyone tell me they've seen it used in a 5e game so that tells me it's probably been nerfed so hard that it's not worth wasting a slot on.
It's nerfed if you add in the same requirements for "familiar" that teleport uses. It's not nerfed if you just need to read or be told about it.

As for my group, we've only had one PC who reached high enough level AND could potentially cast it, and the Bard didn't take it. Not because it was bad, but rather because he wanted something else more.
 

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Pedantic Grognard
So how many spell levels are you willing to dedicate to Marriage Ceremony?
Well, ceremony with a marriage casting variant is a 1st-level spell in 1st edition AD&D (Unearthed Arcana, p.32), 2nd edition AD&D (Priests's Spell Compendium, pp.101-107), Pathfinder 1st edition (Quests and Campaigns, pp.24-25), and 5th edition D&D (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, pp. 147–148).
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
It's nerfed if you add in the same requirements for "familiar" that teleport uses. It's not nerfed if you just need to read or be told about it.

As for my group, we've only had one PC who reached high enough level AND could potentially cast it, and the Bard didn't take it. Not because it was bad, but rather because he wanted something else more.

And also if the DM determines the material component "has value." if it does, that too is a pretty big nerf.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And also if the DM determines the material component "has value." if it does, that too is a pretty big nerf.
Hmm. I didn't see the component with the object from the location you want to find. That does limit it considerably. I'll be dropping that portion for my game.
 


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