Find the Weakness... Updated again 99% final

[Sadrik]

Look above the system has changed in a lot of ways it is much more simple and also makes more sense... Dig in. Lets find the weakness.

Sadrik

 

[Sadrik]

It still has the problem of being front loaded. So, I was thinking about setting up a system of getting an additional skill point at every even level and rogues getting 1 at every level.

Also, there could be a one skill point hurdle to buying a new skill after first level. That way it forces characters to diversify at character creation and then use the leveling up skill points to improve what they know rather than just buying a bunch of new skills.

Sadrik

 

[Coredump]

I have a new and improved version

Okay.

My first question is, what are you hoping to achieve with this new system. There must be something about the current system that you don't like, what is it?

My goal here is simplification.

Current system, when you level up, you get a number of skill points, and you put them in whatever skill you want. You have two types of skills, class and cross class.
Multiclassing is pretty easy to deal with.

Your system, when you level up, you check all of your skills, see which ones are poor, average, good, supreme, and then check the chart.
Multiclassing is very difficult to deal with, and will add more complexity.
You can't gain a new skill unless you take a feat. Taking this feat at lvl 12 can give you 16 skill ranks.
you can't have a 'little' in a skill, so that thwarts taking skills for roleplaying reasons.



For balance, and as a check. I would take some old characters, and try are reproduce their skills using this system. You may have to fudge it a bit, but it should give you an idea of the balance. And if you have to fudge it a lot, it may say something about it also....

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[Sadrik]

Its up! I edited the first post with the new system... I'll copy paste it here too though.

 

[Sadrik]

My first question is, what are you hoping to achieve with this new system. There must be something about the current system that you don't like, what is it?

Choose your problem there are many with the RAW skill system.

We recently got a new player in our group and I had to explain how all of the multi-classing worked and how skill points had to be spent doing that (he was making a sixth level character). I suddenly realized how complex the system really was having to alocate a bunch of points seems counter-intuitive. Compared to things like BAB and saves that automatically "ranked" up when you leveled up.

So, I decided I would make a system that is similar to BAB and saves for skills. It makes the system much more simple and not as time consuming. You dont have to calculate a myriad of skill points. Its just choose your feats and select your skills and they automatically rank up.

Here are a list of things on the top of my head for skill problems:
Doesnt grant flexibilty at high level, characters will have a few skills with high rank and several at a very low (and often times unuseful) rank.
Character with 2/level are a joke when it comes to skills.
Skills should be dificult to learn and easy for a while and then be more difficult to master.
Redundant and or little used skills should be rolled into others. (another issue entirely)
And of course the time issue with the skills.

Here are the problems I see with my system:
Prestige classes with odd skill requirments would be more difficult to get into.
Cant think of any more...

And remember:
All characters get 1 additional skill point on 2, 4, 6, etc.
Rogues get that plus the class feature of getting an additional skill point on the odd ones 1, 3, 5 etc.

Sadrik

 

[Sadrik]

Multiclassing is very difficult to deal with, and will add more complexity.
You can't gain a new skill unless you take a feat. Taking this feat at lvl 12 can give you 16 skill ranks.
you can't have a 'little' in a skill, so that thwarts taking skills for roleplaying reasons.

Here is a simple solution for multi-classing. Your class and crossclass skills are set at first level.

When you apply your new skill points from leveling up you can increase the ones you have already bought. All "new" skills you pick up are considered cross-class skills. Very simple. It then behooves players to pick up class skills at first level that they are interested in because later on they will not get the "skip the poor catagory" boost.

Sadrik

 

[Coredump]

We recently got a new player in our group and I had to explain how all of the multi-classing worked and how skill points had to be spent doing that (he was making a sixth level character).

But I think your system will be even more complex.
Assuming a ftr4/rog2... his max skill level for all of his class skills is 9. He has 40 rogue points, and 8 fighter points. Assign all of the fighter points 1 for 1 to the desired fighter skills, the rogue points 1 for 1 to the desired rogue skills. Anything left is applied 2 for 1 on cross class skills.

Your method: Take 16 points, 'buy' access to skills, either average, good, supreme. Then get 2 additional fighter points, and one additional thief piont. Buy more skills with those. Look at chart for skills.
Of course, now you have to decide if you are poor or good, depending on if you are currently a fighter or a rogue. (or however you handle this.)

So, I decided I would make a system that is similar to BAB and saves for skills. It makes the system much more simple and not as time consuming. You dont have to calculate a myriad of skill points. Its just choose your feats and select your skills and they automatically rank up.

Not trying to be a smart ass... but you realize that this 'calculation' is taking a number, like 6, and adding 1 to it. You have to do this for 2-10 number each time you level. That will take about as long as looking up those same numbers on a chart.

Doesnt grant flexibilty at high level, characters will have a few skills with high rank and several at a very low (and often times unuseful) rank.

How is that not flexible? How is your method more flexible? they can have whatever skill rank they want, in whatever skills they want. Your method will also have some high ranks, and some low ranks.

Character with 2/level are a joke when it comes to skills.

Most of those characters have a short skill list, so they don't have to worry about it much. Plus, unlike disable traps, a climbing skill of moderate level is still very useful. Butif you don't like that, just up their number of skill points.

Skills should be dificult to learn and easy for a while and then be more difficult to master.

I am not sure how your method handles this.

Redundant and or little used skills should be rolled into others. (another issue entirely)

Yep, different issue.

And of course the time issue with the skills.

Not sure what time issue you are referring to.

Prestige classes with odd skill requirments would be more difficult to get into.

Okay, a rogue with a 'good' listen skill takes level in fighter. Now what happens to the skill?
Can I use a point to 'upgrade' a 'poor' skill to an 'average' skill?
What if I originally bought the above skill as a cross class skill, but now it is a class skill, does that one point upgrade it to 'good'?
What happens when I go back to the old class? Does the skill 'downgrade' to average?
Can I save up points?
What if I save up points from two different classes?
I can spend a point at 12th level, and get 6-8 ranks in any skill, *plus* all of my normal skill increases.

Your system does have some interesting aspects. I makes it appealing to have three 'average' instead of one 'supreme'. But is also gives a *lot* more skill points out

How many skill points your system gives depends on if you pick average, good, supreme. For demonstration, I will assume only class skills, all at average, all at good, all at supremet.

Rogue lvl 7 current, 80 skill points
All average: 110 All good: 88 All supreme: 75
Rogue lvl 12, current, 120 points
Ave: 216, Good: 164, Sup: 135

Druid lvl 7 current 40 points
Ave: 75, good: 61, sup: 50
Druid lvl 12 current 60 points
ave: 144, good: 108, sup: 90


The rogue is boosted the *least* of any of them, and still is doing better.
Also of note, the new system is *much* less concerned about int bonus

.

I kind of like the system, but *not* for simplicity. I can't think of much that is simpler than adding 1.... but it has some intriguing aspects.

 

[Sadrik]

I think a lot of what you are saying is confusing the matter. Maybe there is still some carry over from the last system sorry about that...

Ok.
Multi-classing:
you buy all of your skills at first level. So it only matters if it is a class skill at your first level. After that the skill points you gain from leveling up are only applied like a cross class skill. It doesnt matter what class you are going in to. You can also improve one of the ones you already have by one category.

So you have a human fighter with 12 skill points (10 + 1 human +1 Int) they diecide they want to be good in Ride skill so they max it out 3 points in class skill (Supreme) then the character wants to be decent at spot and listen so they apply 1 point to each (Poor). I wont pick all the skills but say they do.

Then at 2nd level they get 1 more skill point the player wants to improve the listening skill. So he does putting the point into it raising it to average. Suppose the character never took ride skill. and then suddenly wanted to ride at 2nd level. He would put the 1 point into ride making him (Poor) at it because he only gets the class skill bonus at first level.

Also it is very easy to keep track of this stuff:

At level 4

Supreme +7
Good +6
Average +4
Poor +2

Skill X G + stat mod
Skill Y P + stat mod
Skill Z A + stat mod

DM says "roll skill X"
Player say "Ok, that a good + my stat mod + my d20 roll"

I think you can see that would be pretty easy.

Sadrik

 

[Coredump]

Sorry about that. Part of the confusion is that you have added some changes, and changed some goals, and we were cross posting.


Okay, I think I understand your system as it currently stands. It is based around the concept that what you choose early is the most important influence to you. No problem.


This does not match your initial desire to have your new multiclassing choice reflect your skill improvements. (Which if fine, just noting it.)

So, everyone gets the same 'skill points' except at 1st level. (except the Rogue, who gets double)
Intelligence is much much much less important. (You may want to bump it to +3 per bonus)
The human bonus is likewise much less important. (as in, close to zero--you should at least bump it up to +2-3 instead of +1)

What class you pick at first level is *much* more important than it used to be.

First level Rogue, picks up UMD, search, disable device, tumble, etc. Then switches to fighter for then on.... He can either spend 3 each, and get these as supreme skills as a fighter. Or he can spend 1 on it, and spend 2 more as he levels up to get them to supreme.

This could also play havoc with getting into prestige classes.


System seems okay, in some ways I like it better. I don't see it being any less 'difficult' or 'confusing'.

I would change the wording a bit:
"You may use your skill points to select any skill at whatever step"
1 skill pointoor
2 skill point:average
3 skill point:good
4 skill point:supreme (??...See Below)
"If the skill you select is listed as a class skill, it gets a one step boost if selected at first level. [Note: there is no level past supreme, thus it does no good to spend more than 3 points on a class skill]"


I see this being a bit easier for creating high level characters, but I see it being no easier for leveling up, and in some ways harder. you will still need to check a chart every level, see which ones have changed, and update your sheet. Or at leaset update what P/A/G/S equal at your new level. You need to change your rating on one every other level.
While that is not difficult, neither is adding 1 to a number.
Of course, you have effectively gotten rid of the human bonus, the intellegence bonus, and class skills. So that will simplify things.

You have also greatly increased the skill ranks available to certain classes, and thus reduced the rogues relative advantage in those areas.


Questions.
Fighter puts 1 point into climb (Class) at first level. Is now at 'good'. He can put 2 more points at level 2&4 to get it to Supreme.
Fighter puts 1 point into diplomacy (Cross class) at first level. It is at 'poor'. He put 3 points in at level 2&4 to get it to 'Good'. Can he put another in at 6th to get it to 'supreme'?

Fighter waits until 2nd level to put a point into Climb (initially a class now a cross class) and gets it at 'poor'. He can put 2 more points in at 4&6 to get it to 'good'. Can he put another point in at 8th to get 'supreme'?
Fighter waits until 2nd level to put a point into diplomacy (cross class) and gets it at 'poor'. He can put 2 more points in at 4&6 to get it to 'good'. Can he put another point in at 8th to get 'supreme'?

At first level, can fighter put 4 points into diplomacy to get it at 'supreme'?


If any skill can be stepped to 'supreme' than it makes class/crossclass less important; but if you can't, it adds more record keeping.

Since you are after a more 'powerful' skill system, and simpler. I would say:
Lower some of the initial skill levels a bit (like make the 10's into 7-8, etc. keep the rogue at 16) .
Double the Int bonus, and triple the human bonus.
Only allow players to pay 3 points per skill at first level. This means class skills can get to 'supreme', but cross class only to 'good'. But then ignore any difference. If they want to take cross class up to supreme at level 2-4-6-etc., let them.

I would like the int bonus to impact past first level, but I don't see an easy way with this method.

 

[Sadrik]

I would change the wording a bit:
"You may use your skill points to select any skill at whatever step"
1 skill pointoor
2 skill point:average
3 skill point:good
4 skill point:supreme (??...See Below)

I thought of this too. At first level your class skills get a bonus point in them effectivle changing the chart to what you have above. What do you think should characters be able to get supreme in a skill that started out as a cross-class skill? It would definately simplify the chart and like you said the record-keeping.

As far as the Int and human bonus thing. I am fully in the school of Int should be diminished. I have had long conversations with people about why that is but here are the highlights. Why does int make someone listen better or use jump better? Or charisma skills better etc. Now that is not to say someone who is smart can't learn more. Just that there are more than one type of intelligence. A really good dancer uses kinesthetics etc. Those are things that we dont normally think of as int in d&d. Sort of like the low IQ barbarian should still have lots of skills and knowledges but would not measure up to the very book smart wizard as far as IQ goes but the barbarian would have lots non-booky skills should the barbarian be penalized for not having book smarts? Maybe a little. So it is great this system lowers the importance of int. I like that. A wizard gets 10 + int that can be a lot of skills. a Barbarian gets 12 + int he will still get a lot of skills even if he has a 7 int. That works for me.

The human bonus is a little tougher. To balance this, first determine how much does a human need? they get a bonus feat. Is the feat too good? Is the bonus skill point still worth while? Is giving them 1 or 2 more on top of that too good? I would venture to say that the main reason people take human is for the feat and the bonus skill point would be just that a bonus. Albiet a nice bonus.

I like the rogue bonus where it is at right now because they get the bonuses later too. Right now they get a 6 point boost over most classes at first and then they can improve better than the other classes.