Fire As Hindering Terrain

[bpauls]

How does everyone handle ordinary, non-magical fire as hindering terrain?

In the next session of my campaign, the characters may encounter a trap which has the ability to set alight the building in which they are fighting.

I intend to create an in-combat skill challenge which will allow the characters to extinguish the flames. While the fire burns, however, I want to have a solid mechanic in place for treating it as hindering terrain.

I was surprised to find that there are no hard-and-fast rules for this in the DMG, the DMG2 or the Essentials DM Book. "Hindering terrain" wasn't even a separate category of terrain until Essentials, and while "fire" is mentioned as a form of hindering terrain, there are no guidelines for determining exactly when it deals damage, and how much.

There are several examples of "fantastic terrain" in the two DMGs, but no examples of something as simple as getting caught in a normal fire.

This is an important question for me, because the first time I used fire as hindering terrain, one of the other players took issue with my ruling. I reasoned that characters should take damage if they enter or start their turn in any square that is on fire.

So if a character wants to cross a region of flames that is three squares wide, he will take damage for entering each of the three squares.

My player disagreed, in essence claiming that the rules treat any contiguous area of fire as a zone, and you only take damage for entering, or starting your turn in the zone.

Under this interpretation, the character would take damage for entering the first square, but could then move about freely, taking no further damage as long as he is safely out of the zone by the start of his next turn.

I feel this interpretation is too lax. It significantly reduces the penalty for entering an area of the battlefield that is on fire, thereby impairing the effectiveness of fire as hindering terrain.

Perhaps there is a more detailed treatment of fire as hindering terrain in one of the WotC adventures. I can't seem to find adequate guidelines in the DM books.

For the upcoming adventure, I am considering the following mechanic:

"Any character entering, or starting his turn in a square that is on fire takes damage equivalent to that found in the 'Damage By Level' table on page 108 of the Essentials DM Book."

This seems reasonable, since "a character stumbles into the campfire" is specifically given as an example of the sort of situation that the Damage By Level table is designed to handle.

The party in my game is currently at third level, so this ruling would mean that any character entering, or starting his turn in a square that is on fire would take 1d8+6 damage.

Does everyone feel this would be a fair way to adjudicate the situation?

 

[D'karr]

Your player is "correct" in a sense. However, as a DM I reserve the right to design challenges as I see fit. For that, I side with you on the particular ruling as you know better than the player what type of challenge you are trying to pose.

4e has a certain design "symmetry" for hindering terrain, which is probably what your player is "quoting". An area of hindering terrain is usually contiguous so that damage applies to the entire area instead of each square individually. A round is only 6 seconds long after all. If I moved across "hot coals" in six seconds I'd expect to take damage once. If I stayed there I'd expect to take damage again. If I stepped across a raging fire I might even expect to catch on fire.

A way to get a similar effect to what you are attempting is to include ongoing damage after the initial effect.

Here's an example:

Fire Pit
A 4x4 zone of fire.
Effect: A creature that enters or begins their turn in the Fire Pit take 2d6 points of fire damage, and ongoing 5 fire (save ends).

You could also scale this by tier if you wanted. I only do that when the terrain is somewhat fantastic in its nature. That is just my preference.

You can also design this as a hazard (trap) that they can avoid, or disarm. If you design it as a Hazard it acts more like a trap that attacks on a specific trigger, and can miss its attack. It gives you a different way of handling the situation. Halls of Undermountain had a bed that was trapped and worked that way.

 

[bpauls]

Thanks, D'karr. I thought there must be something to what my player was saying. He is extremely knowledgeable about the rules, and I have never known him to argue for an interpretation simply because it was "better" for his character.

That being said, can you tell me where this "symmetry" is found in the rulebooks? I'm sure I must be missing it, and it does make a certain amount of sense. For the life of me, I just can't find it.

The DMG has two examples of hazards--"Doomspore" and "Treacherous Ice Sheet"--which specifically discuss entering particular squares, not the "region" occupied by the hazard.

Is this simply a case where later WotC products, such as certain adventures, have tended to describe hazards and hindering terrain in the manner used in your "Fire Pit" example? Perhaps to the extent that the "contiguous area" interpretation has become the accepted norm? Or am I really just missing a section of the rules or specific examples in the books which make this clear to everyone but me?

For the challenge in our next game, I'm sure I will come to an accommodation with my player that both of us can live with. We have a good DM/player relationship, and he is not simply "looking out for number one." It just bugs me that I can't seem to find the rule for something that everyone else seems to take for granted.

 

[D'karr]

What you are describing with your effect would be considered in the rules a zone or hindering terrain for all intents and purpose.

A zone is a lingering effect that extends over an area. PHB 2 pg 222

Zones are usually created by powers including terrain powers. Imagine spilling out a fiery brazier, and setting an area aflame. The initial upturning of the brazier might require an attack roll to catch someone in the area. After that the lingering effect might simply do damage to anyone that enters the area or ends their turn in it. That is completely dependent on what the DM or designer was trying to convey with the effect.

Hindering Terrain - Rules Compendium, pg 312
Pits, electrifying runes, lava, extremely deep water, and other harmful environmental phenomena are hindering terrain, which punishes creatures that are in it or try to enter it.

Saving Throw: A creature can make a saving throw to avoid being forced into hindering terrain, whether it is pulled, pushed, slid, teleported, or otherwise moved against its will. See “Forced Movement” and “Teleportation".

Damage: Hindering terrain almost always has the potential to harm creatures that enter it, either by causing them to fall or by dealing damage to them directly. (Some hindering terrain might impose a penalty or a harmful condition without dealing damage.)

Hindering terrain can harm a creature that enters it. Similar to what you are attempting. Some hindering terrain can impose a harmful condition. Ongoing damage is a harmful condition.

When you enter a zone, or hindering terrain the entirety of the contiguous area has the effect. If there are two "patches" of hindering terrain they are usually not contiguous.

For a good analogy look at how difficult terrain is marked on a tactical map. Each square of difficult terrain usually has the triangle symbol. A patch of hindering terrain usually has a border around it to denote the edges of the effect.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[bpauls]

Perfect sense. This is exactly what I needed. So my fundamental problem was that I was looking in the wrong book!

I don't have my PHB2 with me at the moment, but I will take a look at the zone reference you cite.

Thank you so much!

 

[Trit One-Ear]

You can also look to the first and second encounters in the Scales of War adventure Rescue at Rivenroar (found here: Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Rescue at Rivenroar) )

They have a hazard that sounds similar to what you're trying to make, where first the bar, then the town slowly catch on fire and spread. We ran that a while back and I had fun watching my players scurry around fire and dive through it to save civilians.

Trit

 

[the Jester]

I ran an encounter in the mid-heroic tier that took place in a barn full of hay bales. Looking over my notes, it seems as though the party was probably 7th level overall; there were 8 players at the time.

The monsters included 2 blazing skeleton volley hurlers (lvl 7 elite artillery). Obviously, this meant that the whole thing was going to go up in a conflagration of flame, and I went into the encounter knowing that. (The encounter was a trap for the pcs set by their party nemesis.)

Here's how I set up the haybales, including the possibility of fire:

Hay Bales: The hay bales are stacked 10' high; they are blocking terrain but can be climbed with an Athletics check, DC 13. If a hay bale is caught in the area of a fire attack (or if a targeted fire attack misses a creature adjacent to the hay bales), the affected squares ignite. Anyone adjacent to a burning bale at the end of its turn takes 5 points of fire damage. Worse yet, the fire spreads to each adjacent hay bale square at the start of each round. Once an entire stack of bales is alight, any hay bale squares within 2 ignite immediately and creatures starting their turn within 2 squares of it take 5 points of fire damage.

If a square of hay bales under or adjacent to the loft catches fire, the loft must make a saving throw at the start of each round or catch fire. If this happens, it spreads to each adjacent square at the start of each round and any character ending its turn in or adjacent to the burning squares takes 1d10+5 points of fire damage.

Once the fire reaches the walls of the barn, they must save or ignite just like the loft. Likewise, they spread to each adjacent square at the start of each round.

Once the fire has ignited at least 20 squares of the loft and the walls of the barn, the fire grows in intensity. Any creature that ends its turn within 3 of the flames takes 2d8+5 fire damage, and any creature that ends its turn adjacent to the flames also gains ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends).

When the fire has ignited at least 40 squares of the loft and the walls of the barn, it reaches its maximum intensity. Any creature that enters or starts its turn inside the barn takes 4d6+5 fire damage and gains ongoing 5 fire (save ends).

Note that this was pre-MM3, so the damage expressions are slightly low for a lvl 7 effect.

The fire almost tpked the party, but quick thinking and phenomenal luck allowed the wizard to pull several out, while a natural 20 on a death save allowed another pc in the fire to come to, grab the nearest ally and leap out through a window, suffering a fall from the loft in exchange for escape. The fire also ended the fight, killing the bad guys. In the end, no pcs died but if not for a series of extraordinarily lucky rolls in the last possible round, everyone but the wizard would have been dead.

EDIT: I think setting the fire damage to "ends it turn" worked really well in this case- since the fire was spreading everywhere, the various combatants had to make very interesting choices indeed during the combat!