Fire & Forget Magic System: Should they replace it?

[FungiMuncher]

Originally posted by Jürgen Hubert

Because the spellcasters in D&D are powerful, but they have to ration their power carefully. They have to think about when to use their power. Allowing spellcasters to cast spells all day would drastically alter their very concept in D&D.

Allowing spellcasters to cast spells all day would drastically alter their very concept in D&D.

I absolutely agree that the highest level spells that a spellcaster is capable of need to be limited (though there could be other ways to limit them than spell slots).

What I'm specifically considering are the spells that a caster has had access to for a few levels. Really, what would it hurt if a 5th level caster could simply roll a success check and be able to Detect Magic (as just one example)? It could be considered a basic skill, and by extension, a skill that one could obtain at a certain level of mastery. Yeah, the number of Fire Ball or Dispel Magic spells available is important at this level, but in this example, I think the benefits would be that the players and DM could dispense with the annoying details, and move on with the game.

Certainly, some spells should not be considered this way.

FM

 

[Olive]

personally, i don't think they should get rid of it. its a part of DnD and I like playing wizards...

could there be a better system? probably, but thats what d20 is for: so other companies can tempt us with theirs...

i've never felt that the DnD magic system was broken... most of my friends did, and thats why they play sorcerers...

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

What I'm specifically considering are the spells that a caster has had access to for a few levels. Really, what would it hurt if a 5th level caster could simply roll a success check and be able to Detect Magic (as just one example)? It could be considered a basic skill, and by extension, a skill that one could obtain at a certain level of mastery. Yeah, the number of Fire Ball or Dispel Magic spells available is important at this level, but in this example, I think the benefits would be that the players and DM could dispense with the annoying details, and move on with the game.

How about this: If the spellcaster makes a Spellcraft (or alternatively, an appropriate Knowledge skill) check with a DC of 25 + 5*(spell level), he can cast the spell without extending one slot. If not, the spell either uses up one slot or doesn't work (it it wasn't memorized), and the spellcaster can't use this trick again on the same day.

 

[Buttercup]

Although I don't like the fire-and-forget concept, it's as good a way to balance magic use as any, IMO.

What if a 10th level wizard could cast cantrips (0 level spells) without preparation? I don't think that would unbalance things too badly. One could give a 20th level wizard the same ability for level 1 spells. I mean, by the time you get to that level, you're practically a minor god anyway, so what's the dif?

 

[Drawmack]

I think you're forgetting that spell preperation is more then just memorizing the spell. It is memorizing the verbal component as well as preparing any other components and memorizing what those components are. Once the spell is cast the caster no longer has to worry about the phrasing of the verbal component and has exausted any prepared components, so much like cramming for a test once the knowledge is no longer needed it is gone. I personally make every class prepare their spells ahead of time or every spell gets a MEA added to it's casting time for preperation.

As far as what you're proposing I saw some homebrew that you might find is what you're looking for. This homebrew treated the casting classes as generic classes. So your wizard followed the same rules as the core wizard because he didn't specialize so he didn't really get super good at any spells. Then they introduced prestige classes, you had to be an arcane caster capable of casting third level spells in order to take the class. This is the basics of how the class worked. The number of new spells you could learn was cut in half. You choose three spells you could cast upon taking the class.

1st level you get still spell with only those three spells you are specializing in.

2nd level all three specialized spells can be cast 1/day without affecting counting towards the spell casters spells per day.

3rd level you get quicken spell with only those three spells you are specializing in.

4th level all three specialized spells can be cast 2/day without affecting counting towards the spell casters spells per day.

5th level you get empower spell with only those three spells you are specializing in.

6th level all three specialized spells can be cast 3/day without affecting counting towards the spell casters spells per day.

7th level extend spell with only those three spells you are specializing in.

8th level all three specialized spells can be cast 4/day without affecting counting towards the spell casters spells per day.

9th level Maximize Spell with only those three spells you are specializing in.

10th level Heighten Spell with only those three spells you are specializing in.

HD: d4
Levels in this class get added to levels in your base caster class when you are calculating your caster level for spell purposes.

I that something like you're going for. Sometimes things like this can be resolved with prestige classes as opposed to messing with the core rules system which would also have a serious impact on other things.

 

[Garmorn]

I happen to enjoy the current system for magic. It makes good sence and is challanging to play. I don't think of it as a uneccessary detail. I think of it as the primarly challange and fun of playing a wizard and a nice restriction on the more combat type of spell casters.

I have played other type of systems and have found most of them less challanging or unintresting.

All in all magic systems can one of three catagories. Weaker then normal, equal to normal or more powerfull then normal means. If weaker then their is are should be very little limites on its use and it tends to be adajant to normal skills and abilities. Early editions of Runequest sprite mage is a good example. The only example of equal level of power is Shadowrun where it is treated like a skill in most ways. D&D use the morepowerful the normal apporach and require most spell casters to have to think ahead. This is the primary challange to playing a spell caster. Exspecialy a wizard.

 

[Rasyr]

Re: Re: Fire & Forget Magic System: Should they replace it?

how do we know what makes sense and what doesn't? Just my opinion though...

A long long time ago (in a galaxy far far away), I wrote an article for The Guild Companion detailing how I viewed magic as working. If you think about it for a moment, there has to be a reason why magic works the way it does. There have to be some hard rules detailing that doing xx will produce yy. This is inherent in any magical system provided. It has to be, or else there would be no spells.

What is a spell, if not a formula by which certain energies are shaped/channeled/worked into providing specific events.

I, myself, have never ascribed to the "Fire & Forget" method of spell casting, feeling that if all you are doing is memorizing words, then there is no reason why you should forget it at the end of the day.

I often play using a system which uses power points to determine how much magical energy a mortal body can handle in a given day. It doesn't matter what the energy (or mana, as it is called) is used for, only that it is channeled through the mind/body of the caster in the process of empowering a spell.

I have even wrote up a bunch of rules for d20 in which I crafted a magic system that combines those ideas with the way that D&D curently is set up.

You can read the article HERE . It is called Matrix Spell Casting, and it is completely OGC, thus usable by any company which would like to use it.

 

[Zappo]

Re: Re: Re: Fire & Forget Magic System: Should they replace it?

A long long time ago (in a galaxy far far away), I wrote an article for The Guild Companion detailing how I viewed magic as working. If you think about it for a moment, there has to be a reason why magic works the way it does. There have to be some hard rules detailing that doing xx will produce yy. This is inherent in any magical system provided. It has to be, or else there would be no spells.

But in D&D, wizards don't memorize spells, they prepare them. They cast the spells in the morning, save for the last syllable or so, which is subsequently used to let the spell off. They can't prepare an indefinite number of spells, for mystical or practical reasons which aren't detailed - maybe it is assumed that you can't keep your concentration for more than an hour, or maybe there's some energy which has to be expended while preparing the spells. As for the different spell levels, I view the spells prepared a bit like electrons around a nucleus - they have discrete levels, and there is a certain number of them for each level, and you can't fit one between levels. Smarter or more experienced wizards are like heavier nuclei.

 

[Dinkeldog]

"But Dinkeldog, I want to play a divine spellcaster that doesn't have to memorize spells."

"Then maybe you should consider the Shugenja from Oriental Adventures/Rokugan."

"Wow, then I'm not forced to prepare spells ahead of time in Third Edition?"

"No. Not since August of 2000."

"What a relief, because preparing spells ahead of time isn't how Real Magic (TM) would happen."

"Well, actually, yes, it probably would be preparation ahead of time. The unrealistic part is that D&D shortens the preparation time so that the poor wizard isn't stuck preparing spells for days before casting his 'daily load' of spells. Try checking out Isaac Bonewits' Authentic Thaumaturgy for more detail."

 

[Umbran]

Who else amongst these boards thinks that the fire and forget spell system should be discarded for something else that makes more sense?

Hmm. You know, the thing that seems wrong to me is not that magic is supposed to "make sense". To some folks, some forms of magic simply don't sound plausible. That's okay.

The real thing is the idea that one must "discard" one system in order to use another. It isn't like magic systems are Highlander Immortals, and there can be only one.

Personally, I don't find the WWF plausible. Does that mean I think it shoudl be discarded? No. So long as there's room for alternatives, the people who like it can keep it.

So, no, I don't think the old system should be discarded. I think folks who don't like it should have alternatives. And, since they do, there's not much more for me to blather about here