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Fire Sheild
- Thread starter Markn
- Start date
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
IME, Mass Fire Shield is a nice spell, but it's 5th level and it ought to be. At 4th level, Fireshield is a pretty poor spell for everyone except martially focussed sun-domain clerics (who can take the hits and are in melee combat by choice to begin with).
If you're having trouble dealing with the spell, there are several things I'd recommend:
1. Wait a bit. Color Spray ends combats at first level but is a bottom tier spell by 6th, and generally isn't used at all past then. Mass Fire Shield's usefulness should taper off significantly as more enemies begin to have spell resistance and energy resistance.
2. Dispel Magic. This is a good hint for dealing with any buffing tactic.
3. If all else fails, the duration is rather short. Just have the bad guys make a tactical retreat or feint an attack before the main one to draw the spell out. Unless the PCs are attacking the bad guys, they can afford to pull back and wait a minute for the spell to go away.
By the time mass/legion's fire shield comes into play, animals and unsupported fighters are not significant threats anyway; you should be seeing fewer of them.
If you're having trouble dealing with the spell, there are several things I'd recommend:
1. Wait a bit. Color Spray ends combats at first level but is a bottom tier spell by 6th, and generally isn't used at all past then. Mass Fire Shield's usefulness should taper off significantly as more enemies begin to have spell resistance and energy resistance.
2. Dispel Magic. This is a good hint for dealing with any buffing tactic.
3. If all else fails, the duration is rather short. Just have the bad guys make a tactical retreat or feint an attack before the main one to draw the spell out. Unless the PCs are attacking the bad guys, they can afford to pull back and wait a minute for the spell to go away.
By the time mass/legion's fire shield comes into play, animals and unsupported fighters are not significant threats anyway; you should be seeing fewer of them.
IndyPendant
First Post
Just a thought, but... Are you the only GM in your group, when this spell has been used? Because if so, the cynical-observer-of-human-nature part of me is calling bull(bleep) on that one. : ) Someone in your group has to have noticed that it can't be cast on others...and just kept mum.
I could be wrong. It's happened before. But...
Hrm.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
If my attacking from melee, and getting 10 extra points of damage per attack ALSO results in me taking 1d6+9 damage, then it's pretty obvious that this is a bad deal. I'm taking more extra damage than I'm dealing. Additionally, being in melee exposes me to melee damage in return. In the above equation, if my opponent also does 10 points of extra damage in melee, then I'm really stupid to go melee.Markn said:
You missed a word. Most amount of relative damage. If I can do half your hitpoints in a round, and you can do a quarter of mine in a round, I win, even if the actual numbers are that I'm doing 2 points of damage and you're doing 10.
Replies...
Sigh.
Nail,
Yes, animals can run too. I think a majority of the time they will run and not come back. It's kind of a Law of the Animal Kingdom thing. If it's bigger, it looks tougher and it hurts me I'll run and leave it be. I won't come back. It won't always happen this way but if your doing animals correctly that should be the majority of the time IMHO.
IndyPendant,
No, I am not the only GM in the group. In fact we have done campaigns with rotating DM's where at least half the group have DM'd. I can't speak for others but I really think that everyone did miss it. We have an honest group for the most part and we trust each other. If there is a discussion on a rule we discuss it like adults, not children. I'd go so far as to wager that most groups likely make mistakes regarding rules and that everyone in a group will see it one way when it fact it may be going against the rules. They just may not be as obvious as this example. It takes an investigative group to discover they are doing something wrong in the first place and that is exactly what happened in this case. I had concerns, I brought them to the online community and others have corrected something we missed. You can be as cynical as you want but don't make assumptions especially when they aren't constructive to the thread. Anyways, thanks for your input.
Saeviomagy,
Your points make sense and I agree. I just want to point out that not all things are equal. Not every circumstance is laid out so simple. Whether I am using a module or designing my own adventure some encounters are written with the NPC performing or behaving a certain way. Creature is in a wild frenzy, bad guy knows the mage is the most potent and must be taken out first, maybe he hates mages, maybe he has a low int, maybe there is only himself and the mage is kicking his a@@ from a distance and he isn't running because this is his base or home or lair. I just don't think combat is that cut and dry.
That is a good point that. Relative damage is the proper way to look at it.
For what it's worth, over most of this thread I have been given a lot of advice (thanks guys). Two things stand out from the majority of the advice I have seen. Enemies will flee or retreat to come back later. I can't think of too many other spells that can cause such a wide variety of oppenants to flee, force a massive change in their tactics or avoid attacking that character all together. It most be a pretty potent spell. At any rate I am now OK with the single version. I still have problems with the mass version and here are the reasons why...1) Mass version is only 1 level higher 2) A spell that is self only should not have a mass version - It just doesn't make sense 3) A spell designed to protect weaker people becomes a massive advantage when the strong fighter has the same defense.
Sigh.
Nail,
Yes, animals can run too. I think a majority of the time they will run and not come back. It's kind of a Law of the Animal Kingdom thing. If it's bigger, it looks tougher and it hurts me I'll run and leave it be. I won't come back. It won't always happen this way but if your doing animals correctly that should be the majority of the time IMHO.
IndyPendant,
No, I am not the only GM in the group. In fact we have done campaigns with rotating DM's where at least half the group have DM'd. I can't speak for others but I really think that everyone did miss it. We have an honest group for the most part and we trust each other. If there is a discussion on a rule we discuss it like adults, not children. I'd go so far as to wager that most groups likely make mistakes regarding rules and that everyone in a group will see it one way when it fact it may be going against the rules. They just may not be as obvious as this example. It takes an investigative group to discover they are doing something wrong in the first place and that is exactly what happened in this case. I had concerns, I brought them to the online community and others have corrected something we missed. You can be as cynical as you want but don't make assumptions especially when they aren't constructive to the thread. Anyways, thanks for your input.
Saeviomagy,
Your points make sense and I agree. I just want to point out that not all things are equal. Not every circumstance is laid out so simple. Whether I am using a module or designing my own adventure some encounters are written with the NPC performing or behaving a certain way. Creature is in a wild frenzy, bad guy knows the mage is the most potent and must be taken out first, maybe he hates mages, maybe he has a low int, maybe there is only himself and the mage is kicking his a@@ from a distance and he isn't running because this is his base or home or lair. I just don't think combat is that cut and dry.
That is a good point that. Relative damage is the proper way to look at it.
For what it's worth, over most of this thread I have been given a lot of advice (thanks guys). Two things stand out from the majority of the advice I have seen. Enemies will flee or retreat to come back later. I can't think of too many other spells that can cause such a wide variety of oppenants to flee, force a massive change in their tactics or avoid attacking that character all together. It most be a pretty potent spell. At any rate I am now OK with the single version. I still have problems with the mass version and here are the reasons why...1) Mass version is only 1 level higher 2) A spell that is self only should not have a mass version - It just doesn't make sense 3) A spell designed to protect weaker people becomes a massive advantage when the strong fighter has the same defense.
DM use of Fire Shield
Of course, there's always the flip side. DM use of mass fire shield could be really nasty. Particularly if they are fast creatures, there's many of them, and it is the finale of an adventure. I smell TPK in a scenario such as this....
PS - Just random thought going through my head on what if the role was reversed.
Of course, there's always the flip side. DM use of mass fire shield could be really nasty. Particularly if they are fast creatures, there's many of them, and it is the finale of an adventure. I smell TPK in a scenario such as this....
PS - Just random thought going through my head on what if the role was reversed.
I haven't found fire shield to be particularly potent, probably because I understood it to be a Personal spell, and my wizard doesn't seem to either have it prepared or cast it at the right time. I read legion's fire shield in Miniatures Handbook and reckoned it was broken; I then drafted up a mass fire shield at 5th level based on "rules" for all "mass" spells you can find in the SRD - and lo! when Compete Arcane came out, I found it matched my home-brew version exactly. Trouble is, I reckon mass fire shield at 5th level is broken, too; I reckon it should be a 6th level spell. My wizard doesn't have mass fire shield, and it hasn't been approved by the DM for use in his campaign yet.
But then, the spell is easily countered by mass resist energy, which is only a 4th level spell from Complete Arcane IIRC.
Cheers, Al'Kelhar
But then, the spell is easily countered by mass resist energy, which is only a 4th level spell from Complete Arcane IIRC.
Cheers, Al'Kelhar
Al'Kelhar said:
That's the splat book effect.. as more and more splat books come out, you will see more and more spells more powerful than their predecessors
Remember in core rules, Mass bull's strength etc are 6th level spells, and resist energy is a far better spell than the stat buffs imo.
Imagine
Imagine, if you will. mass true strike, mass mirror image and other spell along those lines. If mass fire shield can do it why not other personal spells? Mass true strike pretty much gaurantees every pc scoring a hit in the round and the fighters being able to take a hefty penalty on his attack to maximize his power attack. Mass mirror image pretty much means every enemy will miss in a round. If they are going to go so far as to make one personal spell into a mass version why not the others? Does anyone else see where I am going with the mass version of this spell....
Imagine, if you will. mass true strike, mass mirror image and other spell along those lines. If mass fire shield can do it why not other personal spells? Mass true strike pretty much gaurantees every pc scoring a hit in the round and the fighters being able to take a hefty penalty on his attack to maximize his power attack. Mass mirror image pretty much means every enemy will miss in a round. If they are going to go so far as to make one personal spell into a mass version why not the others? Does anyone else see where I am going with the mass version of this spell....
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