D&D 5E Firearms help needed please

[Rodney Mulraney]

Hi,

I love 5e D&D, but we tend to prefer to play in modern/futuristic times recently. So we started to use the UA:Modern Magic rules, and the stuff in the DMG about firearms and grenades and stuff.

First problem we ran into was that hacking rules were being operated on in the UA:MM article, but were not specified, so we added them. That was easily solved.

The second problem is proving quite difficult to solve. This is the problem with the firearms in the DMG. The modern and futuristic weapons are ridiculously overpowered. All classes have to take them at low level, and martial classes scale base weapon dmg up to increase their chars dmg as they increase in level. Whilst wizards will find their cantrips will be more powerful than guns at later levels, the martial classes just keep scaling their gun damage up and remain completely overpowered as a result.

modern and future guns just dont fit in with the mechanics of 5e at all.

I've read lots of forum posts etc, where they try to rationalise some way to make firearms work in 5e. The obvious and simple solution is to just set their dmgs as equivalent to shortbows/longbows/crossbows, but that seems to lose the flavour of guns.

The original author of the UA:MM article has another article on a webpage that describes damage reduction and resistant armours for ballistic dmg, a new dmg type that guns do to try to reduce their dmg, this doesnt work without rewritting the monster manual ofcourse. He also talks about an "aim" bonus action - so only once per turn round they do OP dmg, and then it trails off, whilst this might mitigate the problem slightly, and ive not done the math, I'm guessing the math will show it is not solving the problem, only adding needless complication and game slow down.

Talking about about complications and game slow downs; another popular solution is to introduce a whole host of varying complication complexities. I hope the math works out, but I feel it breaks the spirit of 5e. Critical role; Matt Mercer, had Tailsins class like that, and his turn always bogged down the game with delays and complex tallies and whatnot.

We have tried various ways to fix firearms, but so far nothing either feels right or is balanced.

If anyone has thought about this and can offer any advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

My latest idea is something like this:

* Firearms are loud (sounds)
* Future firearms are loud (energy signatures), and only do modern firearm damage (3dX is just too much!)

* All firearms have the "Firearm" property

* "Firearm": new weapon property: You do not add your strength or dexterity modifier to attack rolls or damage rolls for this weapon.

Any advice, great appreciated, thanks.

 

[Imaculata]

Firearms are ranged weapons, so the same rules should apply to them as with any ranged weapon. They are going to be vastly more powerful than bows and swords, because they are modern weapons, so they do more damage. As a result, it becomes more important to take cover, and avoid damage. Enemies will die faster, but so will players, because the same rules apply to them.

One of the disadvantages to Firearms I included in my 3.5 pirate campaign, is that they shouldn't get wet (you can't swim with them), and that on a fumble various accidents can occur. Some early Firearms were notoriously dangerous to wield. Obviously those ideas wouldn't really fit with modern weapons. But what you can do is simply arm most of the opponents with guns too, and to have them make clever use of cover. I think its also reasonable to fire blindly from cover, with disadvantage of course. Plus you can have your enemies make use of all the sorts of tactics that modern SWAT teams use: Flash Bangs and Tear Gas.

I see no issue with futuristic weapons dealing more damage that regular modern weapons, but you could simply make the ammo expensive and hard to obtain.

 

[Rodney Mulraney]

Firearms are ranged weapons, so the same rules should apply to them as with any ranged weapon. They are going to be vastly more powerful than bows and swords, because they are modern weapons, so they do more damage. As a result, it becomes more important to take cover, and avoid damage. Enemies will die faster, but so will players, because the same rules apply to them.

One of the disadvantages to Firearms I included in my 3.5 pirate campaign, is that they shouldn't get wet (you can't swim with them), and that on a fumble various accidents can occur. Some early Firearms were notoriously dangerous to wield. Obviously those ideas wouldn't really fit with modern weapons. But what you can do is simply arm most of the opponents with guns too, and to have them make clever use of cover. I think its also reasonable to fire blindly from cover, with disadvantage of course. Plus you can have your enemies make use of all the sorts of tactics that modern SWAT teams use: Flash Bangs and Tear Gas.

I see no issue with futuristic weapons dealing more damage that regular modern weapons, but you could simply make the ammo expensive and hard to obtain.

Thanks for the reply, that use as is and enjoy the dmg, use tactics approach is how we are currently playing. Whilst so far it has been ok, it is hard to give a lot of monsters firearms, so you either have to recalc their CRs or not use them.

Also even playing that risky tactical game, still fighters/martial classes just keep ramping up their power, whilst other classes will not. You can just make the game harder/high diffculty encounters/etc, and that kind of tactical play will become necessary with bows anyway. The base dmg of guns is the problem; it only takes a few lucky enemy hit rolls, crits+high dmg rolls, and you get a complete TPK in one round, with the players having no way to do anything about it, even when their characters are not that low level anymore.

Making guns/ammo hard to obtain is going in the opposite direction to what is intended; which is that it is set in a time/whatever where heroes like you use guns as their main weapon all the time.

 

[Coroc]

Also do not forget that firearms come with gunpowder. That means even in a renaissance settings you need rules for exploding barrels and cannons also.

In a more futuristic settings this gets worse. In a setting with assault rifles and automatic pistols you also have tanks attack helicopters etc and all the attached arms coming with it. You are running into a lot of work.

 

[Morrus]

They are going to be vastly more powerful than bows and swords, because they are modern weapons, so they do more damage.

Do they? Being beheaded with a sword is pretty catastrophic damage, IMO.

 

[Rodney Mulraney]

Also do not forget that firearms come with gunpowder. That means even in a renaissance settings you need rules for exploding barrels and cannons also.

In a more futuristic settings this gets worse. In a setting with assault rifles and automatic pistols you also have tanks attack helicopters etc and all the attached arms coming with it. You are running into a lot of work.

This is the exactly why I made this thread, we are doing that kinda of work, but I'm worrying about the broken foundation (the gun mechanics) we are building it on.

 

[Yune Vangelov]

Hey Rodney,

I used to run a homebrewed game mixing D20 Modern, Urban Arcana, and D20 Future, back when they were prime. That idea has recently come up again, and I've spent some time constituting it into 5th edition, starting with Modern. We use automatic weapons that blanket squares with damage as well as burst fire that increases the dice to single targets. A few rules we've been using;

Massive Damage. I've always been a fan of mortality. PCs. Monsters. Fear of death really makes the PCs think about how they are going to handle situations. It births critical thinking and tact, which is handy in a world where every breath could be your last. I use the ruling out of the DMG on Massive Damage, except the threshold is set at the characters Constitution score. This kind of levels the field as far as the lethality of everything.

Dodge & Cover. This is a must. I cannot express this enough. Take the Dodge action. Find cover. Its how soldiers stay alive. In a modern world where armor is uncommon place for most people, this is how to be not dead.

Proficiency Bonus & Ability Mod Dmg. This is a rougher patch that takes finding sweet spots. I used the UA: MM article as well when building around with this. I don't use the ability mod to damage. If you are to run with a Proficiency bonus always applying, and don't tend to run much armor in the world, I would consider the old D20 Modern solution; scaling defense bonus.

Damage Mitigation. Ballistic or Piercing? Once you figure that out, put in the measures to defend against it. If the world has firearms, there are defensive measures against it. Armors designed around protecting against them, either offering resistance, or higher defense against them. If your world includes spells, then use them; look into D20 Modern and Urban Arcana for modern spells to not only deal with firearms, but also enrich your setting and affecting the world around in more modern ways. Pit your players against more adversaries that are resistant to those types of damage. If you are using Ballistic as a damage type, then use your best judgement on who would have resistance to it. If your players are blasting through beasties faster than you'd like, give them a few more HP; +2-4 HP per HD or CR, as needed.

Conditions. There is no shortage of reasons during urban battle to either apply disadvantage. Hostages, passer-bys, vehicles whipping in front of your target, or just straight up layers of fog settling into a seedy alley way. Adding complication can be very enriching, of both world and story.


If you'd like any further details about the systems or rulings we use, just let me know. I'll go over any with you.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I added a tweaked version of the Gunslinger (the one used by Taliesin) to my game. I haven't had anyone play it yet, although one player has expressed interest.

I rewrote the guns for that as well. The more advanced guns, in order to distinguish them, have the Loud and Bloody properties. Loud is pretty much what it sounds like (pun intended). All of the advanced guns use either 2d4 or 2d6 for damage, and the Bloody trait allows you to, if you roll doubles, roll the damage dice again and add to the original amount (exploding dice). I worked out the math and it's a relatively modest damage increase. In the case of crits (where you're rolling 4d4 or 4d6), all matching dice get rerolled. To offset this, each gun has a misfire chance which causes it jam/foul on a low roll (that's straight from the original Sharpshooter).

Something I just thought of, while reading this thread, is that a small change to the Bloody trait would allow a greater variety of dice. You could change Bloody so that the damage is a single die, but you roll an additional die and take the higher of the two (like advantage). On a matching roll, the dice would explode as described above. EDIT: VERY roughly speaking, this would be in the ballpark of +2 damage (ie, a 1d6 weapon deals an average of 3.5 damage before crits are factored in, whereas a 1d6 Bloody weapon deals an average around 5.34 damage before crits). Note that this is over the long term, when exploding dice are factored in.

 

[Oofta]

Hey Rodney,

I used to run a homebrewed game mixing D20 Modern, Urban Arcana, and D20 Future, back when they were prime. That idea has recently come up again, and I've spent some time constituting it into 5th edition, starting with Modern. We use automatic weapons that blanket squares with damage as well as burst fire that increases the dice to single targets. A few rules we've been using;

Massive Damage. I've always been a fan of mortality. PCs. Monsters. Fear of death really makes the PCs think about how they are going to handle situations. It births critical thinking and tact, which is handy in a word where every breath could be your last. I use the ruling out of the DMG on Massive Damage, except the threshold is set at the characters Constitution score. This kind of levels the field as far as the lethality of everything.

Dodge & Cover. This is a must. I cannot express this enough. Take the Dodge action. Find cover. Its how soldiers stay alive. In a modern world where armor is uncommon place for most people, this is how to be not dead.

Proficiency Bonus & Ability Mod Dmg. This is a rougher patch that takes finding sweet spots. I used the UA: MM article as well when building around with this. I don't use the ability mod to damage. If you are to run with a Proficiency bonus always applying, and don't tend to run much armor in the world, I would consider the old D20 Modern solution; scaling defense bonus.

Damage Mitigation. Ballistic or Piercing? Once you figure that out, put in the measures to defend against it. If the world has firearms, there are defensive measures against it. Armors designed around protecting against them, either offering resistance, or higher defense against them. If your world includes spells, then use them; look into D20 Modern and Urban Arcana for modern spells to not only deal with firearms, but also enrich your setting and affecting the world around in more modern ways. Pit your players against more adversaries that are resistant to those types of damage. If you are using Ballistic as a damage type, then use your best judgement on who would have resistance to it. If your players are blasting through beasties faster than you'd like, give them a few more HP; +2-4 HP per HD or CR, as needed.

Conditions. There is no shortage of reasons during urban battle to either apply disadvantage. Hostages, passer-bys, vehicles whipping in front of your target, or just straight up layers of fog settling into a seedy alley way. Adding complication can be very enriching, of both world and story.


If you'd like any further details about the systems or ruling we use, just let me know. I'll go over any with you.

Is any of this in a format that could be uploaded as a text file? It could be an interesting discussion point.

My other thoughts on this, based on movies and urban fantasy novels.

• Supernatural creatures often have resistance to or are immune to bullets.
• Intelligent humanoid monsters (e.g. orcs) have access to the same technology. An ogre with a heavy gatling gun ala Fallout Super Mutants.
• Ammo is heavy. Depending on how easy it is to restock, this could be a serious limitation.
• Spells may exist that jam technological devices. In the Dresden Files for example, weapons more advanced than a revolver tend to jam for Dresden, but the area of effect could increase. In other novels, all it takes is the equivalent of a cantrip to loosen a few screws in a gun or to prematurely fire off bullets.
• Ban (or modify) the sharpshooter feat so that people are always at disadvantage to hit if enemies are adjacent.
• Develop rules to disarm/grapple someone with a firearm. Have the monsters run right up to them and either disarm the handgun or grab the long gun and point it away.
• Modify the CR calculation, and heavily discount the CR level of monsters that don't counter the effect of firearms while the PCs have ammunition. Throw waves of cannon fodder at the PCs.

 

[Yune Vangelov]

Is any of this in a format that could be uploaded as a text file? It could be an interesting discussion point.

Much of it. I have been redoing as much of the D20 Modern book as I can. As I worked on it I found the contributions of Ed Wilson, as well. He has a wealth on Google Drive, that was very helpful in offering alternative to options I hadn't thought of.

I do not offer the Sharpshooter feat to my players, and I am a bit stingy with abilities that eliminate cover.

Here are a few snippets I have from my documents:

Firearms
The most basic form of attack with a firearm is a single shot. One attack is one pull of the trigger and fires one bullet at one target.
Personal firearms proficiency allows you to add your proficiency bonus to this sort of attack when you take a bonus action to Aim.
Because of the weapon's unwieldy shape and size, you suffer disadvantage when attacking with a longarm against adjacent opponents.

Weapon Qualities
Automatic. A firearm that has the automatic property can make a normal single-target attack, or it can spray a 10-foot-cube area. Each creature within the affected area must make a Dexterity save (DC 8 + your Dexterity modifier) or take the weapons normal damage. On a successful saving throw, the creature only takes half the weapons damage, or no damage if they have cover. This action uses ten pieces of ammunition.

Special. You can fire a short three-round-burst at a single target. When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action before the attack roll to deal an additional dice of damage. This action uses three pieces of ammunition.

Rulings
Suppressive Fire. as an action you can lay down suppressive fire, imposing disadvantage on attacks by targets in the targeted area. As a reaction, you can make an attack on a target suffering disadvantage from your suppressive fire.

Feats
AUTO-FIRE EXPERT
Prerequisite: Proficiency with personal firearms, 4th level
You are well versed in the use of automatic firearms and controlled bursts, gaining the following benefits:
• Your proficiency bonus is added to the DC of your area attack with automatic firearms.
• When targeting an area with automatic fire, you can target an area forming a line 20 feet long and 5 feet wide.
• You can fire a short burst at a single target. When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action before the attack roll to deal two additional dice of damage. This action uses five pieces of ammunition.

PISTOLERO
Prerequisite: Proficiency with personal firearms
You've developed a practiced hand with smaller firearms. You gain the following benefits:
• You can reload weapons with internal or cylinder magazines as an action or a bonus action.
• If you hit a creature within 5 feet of you with a ranged attack on your turn, that creature can't take reactions until the end of this turn.
• When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a one-handed firearm you are holding.



I have some of the more complete segments I have been working on in my drive. Its a constant work in progress but feel free to check it out, and please, share any thoughts. Find me on Discord; Haunts#1456
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0ByXtJdtw96ceTHJhLXF4UGk1blU?usp=sharing
Be warned, the formatting will be off, as I used the fonts from the D20 Modern book when I wrote them up.