log in or register to remove this ad

 

Firefly Reconsidered: Why Firefly Isn't "Hall of Fame" Great


log in or register to remove this ad

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
TNG is two idk if that would make my top ten let alone 5. TNG is vastly over rated IMHO. The best if it is great but two meh seasons and a lot of filler/meh episodes.

DS9 is better IMHO along with B5, Farscape, SG1/Atlantis off the top of my head. Along with the BSG remake which I rewatched recently and thought it was better than 1st time around.

As above - TNG is not overrated, because it laid the foundation on which every one of those other shows you mention was based.

Next Gen is to modern genre TV as... Elvis and the Beatles are to modern music. Today they may not be seen as the greatest examples, but it was formative of everything that came afterwards.
 


Ryujin

Hero
Eureka has a few facets that make it stand out:
Rejection of cynicism as a guiding principle - contrasting with the grimdark popular in the early 2000s - Battlestar Galactica was the big sci-fi TV hit of the time.
Law enforcement that almost never draws a weapon, and leads with de-escalation.
Positive role models of male friendship, in which men of remarkably different backgrounds enjoy each other's company and give each other emotional support.
Plots that resolve by having people talk to each other like mature adults.
Uber-nerd characters that grow into people who actually understand their fellow humans.
The virtually unflagging positivity of Allison Scagliotti's character was a stand out for me. As a result when things were bad for her, you felt it that much more.

EDIT - Sorry, meant to comment on your previous Warehouse 13 post.
 

Ryujin

Hero
As above - TNG is not overrated, because it laid the foundation on which every one of those other shows you mention was based.

Next Gen is to modern genre TV as... Elvis and the Beatles are to modern music. Today they may not be seen as the greatest examples, but it was formative of everything that came afterwards.
I would have said TOS, but otherwise agree ;)
 


billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
I would have said TOS, but otherwise agree ;)
Fortunately, there's an easy adjustment here. TOS is Elvis - groundbreaking and important, but also highly episodic, there isn't as much of a perceivable progression as it goes along. TNG is more akin to the Beatles - a major evolution in the form of genre media, blending in more concepts from other styles (like the ongoing nighttime drama) and wedding them to the foundation laid by TOS (Elvis).

But that's probably really attenuating the analogy...
 

dragoner

Dying in Chargen
The virtually unflagging positivity of Allison Scagliotti's character was a stand out for me. As a result when things were bad for her, you felt it that much more.

EDIT - Sorry, meant to comment on your previous Warehouse 13 post.
Claudia was one of my favorite characters of the show. Aaron Ashmore's openly gay character Steve Jinks also drew a lot of criticism from the usual suspects. Their boss was a dignified Black woman. The show had a huge amount of detractors at the time for being too progressive.
 

Ryujin

Hero
Fortunately, there's an easy adjustment here. TOS is Elvis - groundbreaking and important, but also highly episodic, there isn't as much of a perceivable progression as it goes along. TNG is more akin to the Beatles - a major evolution in the form of genre media, blending in more concepts from other styles (like the ongoing nighttime drama) and wedding them to the foundation laid by TOS (Elvis).

But that's probably really attenuating the analogy...
And then we'd have to get into where Elvis's influence came from, and... ;)
 


Ryujin

Hero
Right, im seeing TOS being like little Richard now. Bringing a crazy multicultural approach to media...
Bringing a White Russian guy into the mix was controversial enough, at the time, let alone a Black woman and an Asian man as bridge officers. Having lived through most of the '60s I've seen just how much of a revolution (evolution?) that was.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
As above - TNG is not overrated, because it laid the foundation on which every one of those other shows you mention was based.

Next Gen is to modern genre TV as... Elvis and the Beatles are to modern music. Today they may not be seen as the greatest examples, but it was formative of everything that came afterwards.

Maybe but I suspect it's glided by on people being to scared to say anything bad about it due to it being a "classic".

Kind of like the various bands from the 60's and 70"s. TOS sure it's a product of it's time innovative etc.

TNG though has a lot of issues and even trekkues don't seem to like the first two seasons.

It's not terrible by any means but it is very hit or miss and there's a lot of sci Fi shows that are easier to watch.

That being said in 87-92 options were limited and late 90's thing improved a lot IMHO.
 


Stalker0

Legend
TNG though has a lot of issues and even trekkues don't seem to like the first two seasons.
It is interesting that is TNG were to run today, there is a very solid chance it would have been cancelled....and honestly considering the poor quality of the first two seasons....I wouldn't have blamed them.

I am very glad they didn't and we got the baller ST of the latter seasons, but its a fair point that it took the show quite a while to hit its stride.
 

dragoner

Dying in Chargen
It is interesting that is TNG were to run today, there is a very solid chance it would have been cancelled....and honestly considering the poor quality of the first two seasons....I wouldn't have blamed them.
Patrick Stewart said they had him do a French accent and wear a wig in some of the early tests, imagine that, I doubt it would have survived.
 




Season 5 got royally screwed by real life.

First, the network canceled the show midway through season 4. So the writers scrambled to jam in all of the important plot points in the last half of 4. Then the show was unexpectedly un-canceled, leaving them with very little to do for 5, so they had to gin up some kind of a plot to fill in the gaps. Thus the telepath rebellion.

And then, there was some kind of miscommunication which resulted in Claudia Christian leaving unexpectedly. No one seems real clear on exactly what happened, but it doesn't seem to have been what either Claudia or JMS would have wanted. However, it happened. Thus, Ivanova out, Lochley in.
Writer, not writers. Seasons 3 and 4 of Babylon 5 were all written solely by JMS, as was almost all of season 5 (with the exception of the episode Neil Gaiman wrote). As JMS tells it, the original plan was to end season 4 with Intersections in Real Time (the episode where he has been captured by Earthforce and they're trying to break him via interrogation), and to have the liberation of Earth happen in episode 6ish of season 5 (much like the Shadow War ended with episode 6 in season 4). This means that season 5 had to be extended by about six episodes to make up for that.

As for Ivanova, JMS's explanation at the time was that it went something like this: since the show had technically been canceled, so had the contracts. Time was of the essence, so they asked everyone to sign up again with the old contracts, and I'm assuming there was some automatic raise going into that as there usually is in TV. Christian was looking to get into more movies and/or other things, and wanted a contract for fewer episodes and/or a guarantee to be able to take some time off, but at the same time wanted to be paid the same. That wasn't acceptable, and because there really wasn't any time to negotiate they cut her out of season 5.

Originally, part of Lyta's season 5 arc would have been Ivanova's. She was the one who was supposed to fall in love with Byron, for example (perhaps spurred on by Marcus's sacrifice, as a "life's too short" thing).

I haven't heard of Intergalactic; another one that everyone wanted to go on longer was Stargate Universe, which I liked, except I see why it failed, as it was not the Stargate everyone was used too, much darker in tone, and a serial, not episodic.
Stargate Universe very much felt to me like someone had seen the BSG remake and went "Can't we do that, but in Stargate?"

As for serial versus episodic, I'm going to ask Loki what he thinks of that:
BitofBoth.gif


For me, the ideal structure is that we see in most of Babylon 5, as well as Stargate SG-1, Buffy, Angel, Farscape, and Deep Space 9: individual episodes that tell their own story to completion while also contributing to an overall narrative. For example, the season 1 Babylon 5 episode Mind War is about a telepath that's been enhanced to dangerous levels threatening the station with his uncontrollable abilities, and the episode ends with Sinclair letting the telepath go away in a shuttle or a Starfury and become some sort of energy being. But at the same time, it establishes the character of Bester, and Talia's abilities start increasing which will be relevant in later episodes. It also establishes Catherine Sakai as Sinclair's sometime love interest. We also see the Walkers at Sigma 957, and we get to see G'Kar rescuing Sakai from the aftereffects of their visit which shows that he's not all villain as he had been previously presented.

That's the kind of storytelling we rarely see anymore, because most shows have become too serialized. They all become a single narrative, with no opportunity for character development or for letting the plot breathe.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
That's the kind of storytelling we rarely see anymore, because most shows have become too serialized. They all become a single narrative, with no opportunity for character development or for letting the plot breathe.

So true. There is something truly enjoyable about Buffy/B5 mode of combining serialized and standalone storied. Sort of a callback to the X-File "monster of the week" and "mythology."

The closest you come today is probably the various DC-universe tv shows.

Finally, the other tragedy is that showrunners forget that making everything dark and dreary doesn't necessarily make it "better"- just because something is super serious doesn't mean it's good.

tumblr_inline_pb6nvfysTy1ud2av1_500.gif
 

Level Up!

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top